Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions

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Originally Posted by gdm320

I'll tell you man, you need to head over to AR15.com's Forums. Those guys REALLY know their stuff!

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Yeah, if you don't mind the high signal to noise ratio though. There's a handful of guys that know their stuff and then a bunch of kids that think they're operators since they play one on Play Station.

M4carbine.net is a much better source but the focus is on combat capable rifles. Firearms Training and Tactics Network is another good one that a couple guys started, one or two from here, if I'm or mistaken. Then there's Lightfighter and a couple other semi-closed forums, but tread very carefully as it's very alpha-male, many with good reason though.

As for the AR itself..... Bravo Company is one of my first choices. They have pretty much everything and anything you'll need. Centurion Arms is great and also an awesome choice. Owned by Monty LeClaire, an active duty SEAL and one of the nly sources for a mk12 with the issued barrel from Douglas turned down by the same people as the issued barrel. Then there's always the Colt 6920 which is an awesome rifle and the standard for hard use. Spikes?? well, they work. Daniel Defense will always be a good choice, especially their rails which I'm using now in place of my KAC's. Knight's Armament... Expensive and proprietary and needs a $250 wrench for to remove the URX II or III rail. I had two. I sold two. You get a whole lot for your money which I've broken down in detail before. Personally I've decided to go back to the standard components since I break so much stuff. Palmetto State is good too, but there are growing pains. LMT is always a good choice, just keep in mind they do not offer a mid length in their standard offerings, nor does Colt.

Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, Olympic Arms, Stag.... They can work. If your rifle is for defense or work and you do not already own one there's no need to start now. Stick with one in the above paragraph with standard parts. I'd recommend a BCM or Centurion 16" mid length gas system instead of carbine, though a carbine gas system will work fine. Stick with a flash hider instead of a brake, at least for now. GI trigger then upgrade if needed. It'll come with the auto carrier and H buffer. Upgrade parts only when necessary. Get a good sling and light, preferably from Surefire. Quality irons from KAC, Troy, LMT or Daniel Defense are good. An optic from a reputable quality manufacturer like Aimpoint, Trijicon, EoTech, Elcan, etc.

Keep in mind when I post about rifles, I always look at it from a hard use/cobat ready/work perspective. Buy whatever if you never plan to train hard, use it for work or use it for defense. Hope this helps some.

jonconsiglio held my hand through my BCM build. Give him a PM, and search all of the recent threads on this very subject.

There's very little difference between the 1/9 and 1/7 barrels. The real difference is when you start comparing the 9s and 7s to the 12s that are popular in bolt actions.

The faster twist rates stabilize longer bullets. Longer bullets generally mean heavier, unless you're talking solid copper like Barnes' offerings.

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Originally Posted by wjsweet

What about those Sigs they have at Walmart?

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Sig needs to fire that dude from Kimber, get their handguns back up to where they were a few years ago THEN they can start screwing around in the AR market. Then again, I'm not on their board and do not profit from quality control cuts and forcing so-so weapons onto the market.

Just one man's opinion though, take that for what it's worth.

Info overload....

Thank you everyone. I have much to consider. Now to find someone in Denver that has one that I can fire a bit.

Sixto - That reminds me of the question I ask people when they want to start upgrading the performance on their 24v Dodge Diesels. Race or Tow, and how much money you got? Whatever you do, do not install anything purple or begins with Ba...

My simplest answer to that question would to build one that is battle worthy, will accept a fair amount of abuse from both Ma Nature and the operator, chambered to accept both 5.56 and .223, and will not be picky about the brand or bullet weight, and probably most importantly - has non proprietary parts in case I need to scavenge...A SHTF tool. Build it for the worst case situation, and it should do fine in everything else...I think.

How often will I be shooting and what type...There is another story (see my signature - been the same for over a year). Given the current trend, only in the IDPA side matches, once every three months and then only up to 30y. Would love to do some prairie rat hunting, need an invite for that (I can only beg so much before it becomes pathetic).

Lets put the final build total (incl optics, comp, mags, & case) at $1800ish. It does not need to be taticool, Geko45ish, or pretty. Just utilitarian - made to work.

Then watch me cry like a little girl when the .308/7.62 overruns hit the market for about the same price point ($130 per 500)

For that budget you can build quite a rifle.

I had a budget of 1200.

I got a BCM mid length, MOE furniture, 4 mags, and a Troy folding rear sight; for 1150.

After the first of the year, i hope to add an Aimpoint.

So, with your numbers, you can get a top drawer AR

First off, do you want a rifle, carbine or mid-length?

I chose the middy myself, because it seems to have a lower recoil impulse.

Additionally, the mid length with a full auto bolt carrier, seems to be more reliable. The reduced gas pressure and heavier bolt increase lock up time, which enhances extraction and feeding reliability.

Granted, these are all very minute nuances. But if you have the means, why not invest in the best machine?

For $1,800 I'm going with a BCM 16" mid length (or Centurion or Colt 6920) then adding an Aimpoint PRO for about $400, a VCAS sling from Blue Force Gear, a TROY rear sight and a Surefire light....I prefer the Mini Scout but there are cheaper options just as reliable from Surefire like the G2 in a MOUNT-N-SLOT offset light mount. That's it. I'd probably add a magnifier since Botach is still running that more-that-half-off special and they're about $350, but that'll put you closer to 2 grand.

That's it. Later, if necessary add a Daniel Defense 9" Omega or Centurion Arms C4 mid length cutout rail for about $300, but only if you think you need the rail. I do otherwise I'd run something lighter like a standard hand guard or the Magpul MOE.

Good advice from Zacii on the middy as well.

Thanks again everyone for chipping in.

I'm getting brain fried, and can only handle about 2 hours of searching & comparing. Not helping that half of the ones that I am really interested in are not posting MSRP, can't find them on Gunbroker to get an idea, and some are flat out confusing.

jonconsiglio - Looking hard at your suggestions, as you are highly recommended by the locals here.

I like the Centurion MK12- but am having a hard time figuring out if that is upper only, or complete.

I can't find pricing on the most of the Bravo Company rifles I'm eyeballing.

Daniel Defense is on my short list with PSA, and Colt. I'd include BCM and Centurion, if I could get pricing ideas and more understanding, and Centurion MK12 appears to be a picky eater...

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Ammunition
The SPR is not used to fire standard issue 5.56 x 45 mm NATO M855 ball or M856 tracer ammunition, and especially not M193 ball ammunition. Due to the limits in terminal performance and relatively poor accuracy of the 62-grain M855 ball, the Mk 262 Open Tip Match (OTM) round was developed as a more accurate round for the SPR, and is manufactured by Black Hills Ammunition.

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Which would rule out the surplus hitting the market.

I don't know why, but I would really prefer a 20" barrel for some reason. Maybe a preconceived notion that longer is better in a rifle barrel.

Then we run into Stocks, Grips, Handguards...Buy a rifle with plane Jane generic furniture then dress it up with Magpul plastic, or get one pre dressed?

Right now I am looking at the Magpul sniper stock (I prefer slow aimed fire to lead flinging), but their adj stocks are nice too.

Optics...that's gonna sting.

Today's mystery question.

Are all AR lowers designed to accept multi caliber uppers (I.E. - a 5.56/.223 upper or a 7.62/308) or are we talking about a complete new build?

That's all for now.

If you want a mk12, there's only two or three that offer the correct Douglas barrel that's turned down by the same company as the issued mk12. Centurion Arms and High Caliber Sales are the two I'm sure of and there may be a third. You're looking at close to $1,400 for just the upper without irons. if you want it the same as issued, you'll need to add the KAC front and rear sights like you'll see on my rifles, but they are close to $400 for the set, though well worth it in my opinion due to quality, durability and profile. Any decent lower will work and I usually use Noveske but anything will work and you're looking at about $400 to $500 for a good lower set up correctly to work well with that upper, which I'll break down for you if needed.

If you want accuracy over all else, a 16" SS BCM or Centurion will run with anything out there. I'm debating between this and the mk12 myself right now for my next rifle.

Personally though, I'm getting just about 2 MOA with a 14.5" BCM cold hammer forged barrel with a T1 and no magnifier with xm193. It's about a 1 MOA rifle with the appropriate optic and ammo. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll try to help you out.

Centurion mk12 - MK12 Mod1 Upper

Centurion SS 16" Recon upper only - http://centurionarms.com/index.php?o...art&Itemid=178

BCM 16" SS barreled upper only - http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-S...16%20ss410.htm

OK, let me start a build list.

BCM SS410 18" Rifle Length Upper Receiver Group w/ VTAC TRX 13" Handguard 1/8 Twist - $729.00

I compromised between the 16" and the 20"...not sure it's worth the extra $250 for 2" but it comes with a handguard.

BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) Auto - $139.95
BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging Handle (5.56mm/.223) w/ Mod 4 (MEDIUM) Latch - $44.95

Now I can go with BCM blem lower or factory perfect $269 ~ $340 with no stock
Magpul stock $255
Optic $400+

Then I start wandering down the rabbit holes and I get in trouble (BCM Mk 12 Mod 4-Bravo (VIS12) (Polished Stainless Barrel) includes above upper extras plus compensator - $1400) among other sites for misc parts. I keep kissing that $1.8k complete package goodbye.

Time to rest my noodle a bit.

1/7 twist if your looking to use any of the good stuff from premium 5.56 ammo lines. Milsurp stuff is optimized in 1/9 twist. Purchase accordingly.

Since you identified yourself as a slow aimed fire kind of guy, I assume that you aren't doing a build for some specialized CQB purpose. With that in mind, 20 upper works well for people that have longer limbs. The shorter barrels feel too short to get a good extended grip on the handguard. A2 stocks work equally well for long armed folks that aren't wearing armor or LBE.

Why consider building a clone of a military issue SPR rifle? Since your not looking for tacticool stuff or a collector I'm curious. You could end up with a quality build and good glass with the budget you have but not if you go down that path. Uncle sugar has a much larger gun budget than most working class stiffs.

I've built on BCM, DD, and ST barreled uppers. I have good things to say about each manufacturer. Like another poster, I prefer midlength gas system for the reason he laid out.

Agree with RKM in the following regard: Unless your shooting 5000 rounds or more per year from your rifle, you probably aren't going to realize any benefit from having a cold hammer forged barrel. I mean honestly, most people that own ARs don't even shoot them often, if at all. OTOH, depending on the reasons for building an AR gun, perhaps that level of use may be in your future. Again, plan accordingly.

Honestly, I'd look into 7.62x51 with your budget in mind if your motivation is to take advantage of cheap .gov ammo on the market.

5.56/multi lowers are not compatable with 7.62 uppers.

ETA: Comments made before I was aware that you've committed to a particular direction with your build. Looks like your off to a GREAT start. I would've spent less on the upper and more on the glass tho.

Must be a typo, Magpul stocks aren't $255 :wink:

I went with the BCM blemished lower, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I cannot tell where the blemish is.

There is quite a large thread on M4C on the BCM blemished lowers with pics, too.

Sticks, is there a reason you're looking at the 18" over the 16"? The 16" will be just as accurate and you only loose a very minimal amount of velocity over those 2". If you're shooting from the bench for accuracy, chambers will play a role of course, often more so than the 2" difference in barrel length. The mk12's chamber, whether you're looking for a military clone or not, is optimized for mk262 and will handle it better than almost any other rifle out there due to the fact that it's optimized for mk262.

There will be no difference in feel whether tall or short, long arms or not due to barrel length if you're using a low pro gas block. The mk12 with an 18" barrel uses a free float 12" KAC handguard. The 20" barrels with fixed front sight or low pro gas lock use a 12" hand guard, whether plastic or drop in. My 14.5" with a low pro gas block uses a Daniel Defense RIS II m4a1 which is 12.25" long.

Now, if all have a fixed front sight, then a 10.5" through a 16" with a carbine gas system will have a 7" hand guard. A 14.5" through an 18" with a mid length gas system will have a 9" hand guard. A 18" or 20" with a rifle length gas system will have a 12" hand guard. I prefer at least a 10" handguard if I can use one. The only rifles I have with shorter rails are my SBR's. My mk18 with a 10.5" barrel has a 9.5" hand guard.

Keep in mind that almost any precision oriented AR you buy should come with a low pro gas block.

The BCM SS barrels will have a SAM-R chamber which is a 5.56 match chamber. Now, if you're wanting great accuracy, you can buy the mk12 barrel from Centurion so you're not paying for the KAC rail if you don't want it. You can also get it from him in 16", which will give any other SS barrel a run for its money. I'm not saying the BCM is not an awesome choice, just stating the differences. I'd be happy with either, but I have a thing for partial military clones in a way.

Keep in mind that the life of a stainless barrel is a good bit less than standard or CHF in most cases. It's not that they'll be ruined but they'll open up a bit. Obviously though, SS barrel are not used the same way as a CHF barrel. I've shot a few barrels out, so I look at this when shopping for uppers.

That BCM lower comes with everything you need and you can have them swap it out for a Magpul MOE or CTR for just a few bucks. If you're talking about the UBR, I'd opt for something else and maybe look at the SOPMOD. Depending on where you order the lower, if you want the UBR or Vltor A5, they'll likely swap it since thh lower will come with a carbine receiver extension, H buffer and M4 stock.

The Vltor A5 can be a useful receiver extension that will still allow any collapsible stock and it will be a significant benefit on a rifle length gas system, though it's an improvement on any gas system or barrel length.

EDIT - I do think your choices above are good and will serve anyone looking for a precision rifle very well. Personally, I'd go 16" with a mid length gas system unless it was the mk12 as I have quite a bit of time on both and there's no benefit to the 18" unless we're talking velocity and how it performs on the target of distances beyond 500 or 600 meters..

ssssssssssssssssssSSSSSS POP ...

Yet more good info.

I've opted for the baby caliber since the price point of the brass 7.62/.308 can't touch the 7.62x54r yet (and NOBODY makes PSL upgrade kits). When/if the .308 ammo prices drop, I'll likely sell off my PSL to fund a non-corrosive long range lead launcher.

Yes, I'm tall with the freakish long arms (and a rather long neck). Length of pull is my primary concern - all in the stock. Barrel length is in my head. So given that latest bit of info, I'll drop back to the 16".

Admittingly I am getting lost in some of the anachronisms of the brands/types, and no, the Magpul stock price was not a typo. $255 for the sniper, $251+ for the UBR [had to search for that one].

I do want a free float barrel and low profile gas block. Not sure what I am going to do about the iron sights [BUIS :) ) since I am not all that good with them - minuet of flock/herd/squad -, so a fixed front sight is not paramount. This swings me around to the full length top rail right?

Lots of compensator builders out there waving the "Best Available" flag. Watching the videos, I am leading towards the Battle Comp over the PWS.

Now the BCM 16" barrel states that they do not include the bolt/carrier and charging handle, and the lowers/receivers are a bit confusing to me as to what all parts are there, and what all I need.

Then we start wondering about adj or match triggers, flared mag wells...