Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions - Page 3

Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions

This is a discussion on Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Sticks sssssssss sssssssssSSSSSS POP ... Yet more good info. I've opted for the baby caliber since the price point of the brass ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    ssssssssssssssssssSSSSSS POP ...

    Yet more good info.

    I've opted for the baby caliber since the price point of the brass 7.62/.308 can't touch the 7.62x54r yet (and NOBODY makes PSL upgrade kits). When/if the .308 ammo prices drop, I'll likely sell off my PSL to fund a non-corrosive long range lead launcher.

    Yes, I'm tall with the freakish long arms (and a rather long neck). Length of pull is my primary concern - all in the stock. Barrel length is in my head. So given that latest bit of info, I'll drop back to the 16".

    Admittingly I am getting lost in some of the anachronisms of the brands/types, and no, the Magpul stock price was not a typo. $255 for the sniper, $251+ for the UBR [had to search for that one].

    I do want a free float barrel and low profile gas block. Not sure what I am going to do about the iron sights [BUIS :) ) since I am not all that good with them - minuet of flock/herd/squad -, so a fixed front sight is not paramount. This swings me around to the full length top rail right?

    Lots of compensator builders out there waving the "Best Available" flag. Watching the videos, I am leading towards the Battle Comp over the PWS.

    Now the BCM 16" barrel states that they do not include the bolt/carrier and charging handle, and the lowers/receivers are a bit confusing to me as to what all parts are there, and what all I need.

    Then we start wondering about adj or match triggers, flared mag wells...
    There's only two main contenders for triggers... The standard milspec trigger, which I prefer, or me from Geissele. Please do not look at anything else. For Geissele, stick with the SSA or one of the super dynamic triggers. You can still find the S2S for about $120, their cheapest, at Palmetto State I believe, but soon this trigger will nly be available with lowers.

    As for the lower, if you look at G&R Tactical, you'll see all the options for the BCM lower and what can be swapped. Grant will swap other stuff if you want, it's just not in the drop down menu. For the uppers, you'll need the BUIS and the bolt carrier group. Stick with the M16/full auto bolt carrier groups from BCM, DD, Colt and not the AR15/semi bolt carrier groups. The M16 BCG's have more mass which aids in unlocking and extraction.

    Personally, after owning a few PWS comps, 2 BattleComps and 2 KAC Triple Taps, I've gone back to flash hiders. The brakes are noisy, a lot of flash and really don't give me that much more speed. The only place I still will use them would be something like the mk12 with a precision optic so hopefully it's less muzzle rise and I can see my POI.

    When it comes to rails, since you want low profile, I'd stick to something at least 12". You mentioned the 13" earlier which is a good choice. I prefer complete railed handguards and the Daniel Defense RIS II is my first choice. Next would be the Centurion Arms C4 12" rail. It's easy to install and remove and does not require removal of the barrel, though all of that is usually done by BCM. I like the tubular style rails, but with my style of shooting, they can get too hot. They still allow enough space for mounting, but I like to run some type of rail cover, which I can't do on a tube. But, that's just for me..

    I'm going to strongly suggest you look at the Vltor A5 receiver extension. At the very least, look at the Vltor stocks, I prefer the iMod but the eMod is nice just a bit bigger, and the LMT or b5 SOPMOD stock. The UBR is heavy. The other me is decent, but it's a bit much n my opinion and is limiting. With something like the SOPMOD, you still get a great cheek weld but also it's also light and easy to handle in standing/kneeling positions as well.

    Remember also that the SS barrels are not light. There is a semi-lightweight SS barrel also. I don't remember if BCM has one, but Noveske offers them. Now, a CHF 16" barrel from Centurion or even BCM will still be very accurate, like a hair over 1 MOA accurate with the right ammo while being more than half a pound lighter, or more.

    If you are going for all out accuracy and shooting often from the bench, you might want to check out the Vltor MUR upper receiver. It's just the upper where the barrel attaches and houses the BCG, it does not include a rail like the Vltor VIS, so you can still use whatever rail/hand guard you'd like, but it's a nice option on precision uppers. I don't think it's necessary at all, just letting you now the options.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Wow I had no idea that those stocks even existed, let alone at that price.

    I thought you were talking about MOE stocks at about $50; little did I know

    Sounds like you know what you want, sounds like a fun build. Man, I got really lost, really fast, on all of the AR acronyms My first few weeks researching ARs was more like learning a new language!

    Another plug here for Grant at G&R Tactical. He's always been good at returning my emails if you've got questions about his products.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    I would keep it simple;

    If you want to find one that runs and runs well, go to a 3-gun match and talk to the competitors; they will be a mix of people like you, hard-core masters, LEOs and probably some Mlitary folks. They know better than anyone what guns run out of the box and which ones need work and which ones simply break when you need them the most. Back in the 90s when I was a 3-gun master I shot the barrels out of 2 DPMS guns over a 10 year period. they ran like tops and were deadly accurate.

    Nowadays, I shoot a Stag model 8. I bought that one because I wanted to see if there was a big difference between a piston gun or a DI gun. I can still shoot MOA sized groups with the model 8 and I have run the crud through the gun (a handful of range dirt) and then run the crap out of it during a 500-round test with some Texas Militia folks kind enough to invite me to one of their training days..... On all counts the gun passed with flying colors....... For the record I paid $1000 for the gun which I didn't think was bad for a piston gun.

    I take opinions of who builds the best ARs with a grain of salt because the serious AR crowd reminds me a lot of the Bench Rest crowd which are some of the most anal people I know, relentless perfectionists who have never met Mr. Murphy. I also note that there are only a handful of manufacturers that actually make the base parts that comprise an AR so the real question is, do you want a hand-built AR or do you want to buy something off the shelf?

    With a custom gun you get one built by a Master, that performs like a Master.

    With an off-the-shelf gun you may get close to a Master-level performance, but then again you may only get a dependable work-every-time performance........
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    And what custom ARs do you recommend? I run my ARs hard about 3 or 4 times a week. I train civilians and LE on a regular basis and carry a rifle at work. I have yet to come across a custom built AR that was combat reliable. I've seen tight, fast shooting rigs that'll win competition but they may also get you killed in a fight. I see combat rifles that win competitions as well but also be 100% reliable. I see others that won't win competitions as well.

    ARs are quite different than 1911's and there aren't many hand builders in the game. There are spec or not spec parts from right or wrong forgers/manufacturers then they're assembled. No fitting needed. Not sure what a hand built AR would even be? 500 rounds is just day one of a week long class, so 500 rounds doesn't say much about a rifles performance. This separates the commercial grade from professional grade rather quick. I can link a dozen AARs about commercial grade ARs from the local gun shop that failed miserably during a class while the same AAR states that all the BCM's, Colts, etc. ran through a couple thousand rounds without issue in the dirt, rain, mud and dust.

    I burn out barrels yearly and have met Murphy many times in some less than ideal situations. I know with 100% certainty that BCM, Colt, Noveske, DD, KAC and LMT will run as hard as I run them as long as they get the squirt of line they need once or twice a day. I also know which ones will not run in the worst of situations.

    Not really sure what you're recommending or not in that post above...
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    If I were to send G&R a shopping list of the various bits and pieces, they would assemble a rifle package?

    I am basing this on they carry just about all the brands and various components recommended here.

    On edit - my thread, no peeing contests please.

    I take everyone's recommendations, advisement's, and suggestions, then make my decisions from there based on my wants/needs and resources.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  6. #36
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    Just go buy an Olympic to tick Jon off after all the effort he puts into his AR posts.
    jonconsiglio likes this.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Be better to thank him by taking one of his classes when [if] I get done.
    jonconsiglio likes this.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    If I were to send G&R a shopping list of the various bits and pieces, they would assemble a rifle package?

    I am basing this on they carry just about all the brands and various components recommended here.

    On edit - my thread, no peeing contests please.

    I take everyone's recommendations, advisement's, and suggestions, then make my decisions from there based on my wants/needs and resources.
    For the most part... I'd suggest talking to Neil at Gun Gallery in Jacksonville as well. I've dealt with both of them and I can say I really appreciate all Neil has done for me. His turn around times are amazing. I ordered my last upper with specific parts and he assembled it that day and shipped the next. The only thing he doesn't do there is the pinning of flash hiders and gas blocks. No need to pin the flash hider on a 16" or longer, but it's always a good idea to pin the gas block. He does send them out though and that adds a week or two to the turn around time.

    For the record, I wasn't trying to have a peeing contest. Sometimes, especially on forums, it can be important to state where your experience actually comes from. Knowledge is knowledge, but when it's first hand through your own experience after many trials and errors, I think it adds something and can be of benefit to others. So, now and then it might need to be thrown out there so advice that may be good doesn't get passed over because the reader thinks he might be some 100-round-a-month shooter that doesn't have any worthwhile experience.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Just a bit more info on getting a complete rifle...

    IIRC, when you get a complete rifle there is an 11% excise tax. But, if you buy the upper and lower separately you can avoid that.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    OP - With the budget you have in mind, I'm going to suggest something a little against the grain:

    Get a "decent" 5.56/.223 rifle - think Mini 14, or Saiga, or even Kel tec. 5.56/.223 is reasonably priced ammo, and is everywhere.

    Then, with the left over money, get a "decent" .30-something rifle - think decent bolt gun, Saiga, Remington pump rifle, or a lever gun.

    While the 5.56 is an OK round, I'd much rather use a .30 rifle for serious work, especially around cover.

    I ended up with a .30-30 lever gun, because I've come to appreciate tube mag long guns for civilian use. There is no need to lug around spare mags, nor do you need to check every mag for function. All you need to run the gun is ammo. And those tube mags can get topped off easily. I just do not see needing more than a few rifle shots to solve any situation I might be in, as a civilian.

    Rather than blow your budget on one rifle - I'd get two instead. Just something to consider.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...For the record, I wasn't trying to have a peeing contest. Sometimes, especially on forums, it can be important to state where your experience actually comes from. Knowledge is knowledge, but when it's first hand through your own experience after many trials and errors, I think it adds something and can be of benefit to others. So, now and then it might need to be thrown out there so advice that may be good doesn't get passed over because the reader thinks he might be some 100-round-a-month shooter that doesn't have any worthwhile experience.
    I was trying to prevent one from starting 2 or 3 rebuttals later.

    Zacii - Is that an AZ thing or Federal thing with the tax? Never seen that detailed on any other guns I have had shipped, but it might have been wrapped up in the total.

    10thmtn - Already been down that road, several times. .30 cal ammo prices have got to come down a lot more. Until then it's 7.62x54r for my PSL and Hex Mosin (which may get "Bubba'd" into a DMR/Modern sniper). Besides, my goal is an Accuracy International .338 Lapua for long range thumping.


    Finished weight of the rifle is not much of a concern, I actually prefer heavy. I have a natural vibration that makes light things very difficult to hold on target. Been that way since my competition archery days (the only guy pulling 70# in a match of 600 shooters in my division).

    Jonconsiglio - Of the three comps that you have used, which had the better performance. I don't mind push, I just want to limit muzzle rise.

    Updated build list -

    Upper [$1k +/-];
    BCM 16" Barrel [SS or CHF to be determined] w/fixed front sight post, mid length gas system (?)
    Vltor MUR VIS 3AK receiver and CASV-EL rail/handguard, Battle Comp 2, Troy folding rear sight, BCM Gunfighter charging handle - med., auto BCG.

    Lower [$550 +/-]
    BCM with Magpul MAID grip, Geissele SSA-E trigger, Vltor eMod stock [extended receiver & spring, H3 buffer]

    Leaving me with a whopping $250 +/- for optic. Crap....

    Oops... ammo, mags (4ish), sling, case...I know I am forgetting something...

    Edits anyone?
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Jonconsiglio - Of the three comps that you have used, which had the better performance. I don't mind push, I just want to limit muzzle rise.
    Of all the comps/brakes I've used, the Surefire is probably the best. But, it's obnoxious, so that's why I went with the BattleComps and Triple Taps. The Triple Taps (or new MAMS from KAC) are well over $400 due to machining plus they're made of inconel. One of the main benefits of brakes in general is it acts as a sacrificial baffle and extends suppressor life.

    Right now, if I were to recommend any of them, it would be the BattleComp (almost equal to the Triple Tap) due to the fact that the blast is tolerable and it's less obnoxious while it's just as effective at limiting muzzle rise as any other. The difference is things like the Surefire (or über obnoxious competition brakes like the Miculek) also limit reward recoil.

    Honestly though, the best brake I've used is my support hand, but also remember the type of shooting I do generally. For a rifle spending a lot of time on the bench, I think they serve a useful purpose. I have a brand new Surefire around somewhere that I never even mounted. They're comparable in price to the BattleComp, both running close to $150 new. If you don't want to spend that on a new brake, go with the A2 flash hider and wait, don't skimp. I was going to put the Surefire up for about $120 on the E&E but never got around to it and still have to find it. I sold my slightly used Surefire brake for about $100 so you can find decent deals. I know the BattleComps pop up now and then as well on the other forums. I put the BattleComps on oth of my SCARs and it actually pushed the muzzle down since there was so little flip to begin with on my SCAR H.

    The PWS brakes are very nice as well plus they just came out with another that's supposed to have less flash but I've never tried it. I've only used their other ones that came on my SCARs and on a buddy's AR. It's nice because it'll still accept the Halo and I think the KAC NT4 suppressor and it's doesn't add any more length than an A2 (or close) while the Surefire adds about 3/4" or more and the only other brake (not just a flash hider) that accepts the KAC can is over $400. No other brake accepts the Halo, if I remember correctly.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    As for that lower, it should come with a stock and carbine receiver extension with an H buffer. All you'd need to do is swap the stock itself, not the receiver extension or buffer. Right now a buddy of mine has a bunch of iMod stocks for something like $60 or $65. I know it's not eMod and more in line with the size of the standard, but it saves some money if you're interested. There's no need for the H3 buffer on a 16" mid length. Maybe on a commercial grade 16" with a carbine gas system, but not what you're looking at.

    When mention the eMod and the extended receiver and H3, what did you mean? Did you mean a carbine receiver extension kit with the eMod or the Vltor A5 receiver extension with the eMod. If its the A5, stick with the standard A5 buffer. That's also the only time you'd need to change out the carbine receiver extension and H buffer the BCM lower will come with. The eMod will work fine with either, the A5 receiver extension is just similar to a rifle receiver extension with a buffer between the length of a carbine and rifle RE while using a rifle spring and still allowing a collapsible stock while only adding 3/4" in length. The eMod and ACS will collapse completely while the CTR, Colt, SOPMOD and iMod, for example, will collapse to the next to last position closed.

    Oh, as for that Vltor CASV, I don't like it at all. It's awkward, adds too much bulk and raises a majority of the top rail. I'd stick with a Centurion C4 12" rail or something else similar from Daniel Defense or possibly KAC. I'd strongly suggest either the Centurion or Daniel Defense RIS II or Lite.

    If you go with the fixed front sight, which may or may not affect your sight picture with a magnified optic, the Lite 9" cut out or Centurion 9" or preferably the mid length cut out would be the way to go if you use a mid length gas system. The Centurion mid length cut out will extend slightly past the sides of the front sight base while the 9" will stop right behind it. I would stay away from that CASV.

    Personally, I'd go with a low profile gas block and 12" rail. If you want a fixed front you can easily add a Daniel Defense or LMT fixed front sight, otherwise a quality folding front will work well.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    The tax is federal.10% for pistols and 11% for rifles. It's already included in the price.

    As I understand, it's incurred on the lower when buying separately, rather than the entire rifle.

    One of the reasons dealers can offer better prices to LEO and military is because they are exempted from this tax.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    The tax is federal.10% for pistols and 11% for rifles. It's already included in the price.

    As I understand, it's incurred on the lower when buying separately, rather than the entire rifle.

    One of the reasons dealers can offer better prices to LEO and military is because they are exempted from this tax.
    I've heard about this tax before, but I didn't know for sure or about that exemption. Good info.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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