Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions

This is a discussion on Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn Dang. That is a whole lot of money for a poodle shooter. But, you're going to save money in ammo, right? ...

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Thread: Gods help me, I may cross over to the dark [AR] side. Newby questions

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Dang.

    That is a whole lot of money for a poodle shooter.

    But, you're going to save money in ammo, right?

    I'm only teasing you a bit, but in all seriousness, if I were to spend that much on a rifle, it would be on something like an M1A firing 7.62 x 51.

    Your dime, your choice. But I should never ever ever spend that much on a 5.56 rifle.

    If you want to shoot cheap, get a .22LR.

    JMHO, good luck whatever you decide to do.
    Have faith, I will eventually get a large bore that does not shoot corrosive ammo.

    $150 for 420 rounds of "poodle pumper"

    $260 for 400 rounds of 7.62 Nato.

    My first time out with my PSL & Mosin, I smoked an entire 440 round ($80) tin of 7.62x54r in one day.

    Yeah, if I shot as much as I wanted to, it would definitely add up real fast to the point of being spooky.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Yep, because often an M1A fills the same roll as a carbine.... I think once the Grandpa generation finally passes on, we'll see about nobody recommending an M1A..! ;)

    At my next carbine course I'm taking an M1A. No, better yet..... Next time I'm escorting a client though the border towns here in Texas or teaching an LE class, I'm going to bust out the M1A. That'll work well when teaching vehicle tactics!!
    Relax Jon.

    The OP seems to be looking into the 5.56/.223 out of concerns for ammo cost - not because he is escorting clients through border towns or doing high-speed vehicle tactics.

    And by the way - seems like the military is re-learning its appreciation of the ol' M14, isn't it?

    Folks can spend their money as they see fit - the OP wants to invest a whole lot of money into a carbine that will shoot cheaper ammo. Personally, I would spend less on a .30-something rifle, and use the money I saved for ammo and/or training.

    Sure, in the long run, the difference in ammo cost will add up, if you shoot a lot. Just a question of priorities.

    I'm only in my 40s - do I qualify as "grandpa?"

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Relax Jon.

    The OP seems to be looking into the 5.56/.223 out of concerns for ammo cost - not because he is escorting clients through border towns or doing high-speed vehicle tactics.

    And by the way - seems like the military is re-learning its appreciation of the ol' M14, isn't it?

    Folks can spend their money as they see fit - the OP wants to invest a whole lot of money into a carbine that will shoot cheaper ammo. Personally, I would spend less on a .30-something rifle, and use the money I saved for ammo and/or training.

    Sure, in the long run, the difference in ammo cost will add up, if you shoot a lot. Just a question of priorities.

    I'm only in my 40s - do I qualify as "grandpa?"

    I'm relaxed... Remember, I actually like you and most people here for some reason.

    The military was an interim thing and almost everyone hates it (I shouldn't say that, I just know my buddies and those posting about it do not care for it) but, it surely was a specialty weapon and not suited for general use. Seeing as in Afg they were finally seeing distances exceeding 500 meter and for some odd reason the majority of fire support teams are positioned 600 meters or more from the target house/building, which makes little sense along with the fact they almost all have to go cold for the most important part, it made some sense for a very specific role.

    Now, I shoot a ton of 5.56 and a good bit of 7.62. If all I shot was 7.62, my ammo costs would almost double. Well, maybe not since most don't run a 7.62 like a 5.56. Sticks has expressed interest in a carbine class and a home defense role for the rifle so of course the 5.56 makes more sense. I think that's part of the reasoning, not just cost. All of my 7.62's have been jmuch more expensive than my ARs.

    Luckily with some of the new loadings of TSX, we're seeing much longer effective ranges and it's really bridging the gap a bit more.

    As for your 40's.... My wife is 41 and just became a Grandmother, as much as it sickens me to say. Her 20 year old had a baby a few months ago with her long time boyfriend......whatever. I'm 31, by the way and I guess SOME could consider me a step-grandfather.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Well then,

    A bit of historical correction - the M14 was indeed intended for general issue. It was designed to replace both the semi-auto Garand rifle, and the full-auto BAR. At that, the M14 (like the FN FAL) failed - it is simply too light in weight for the average infantryman to control on full-auto. Let's not forget the general issue rifle in WWII was the .30-06 Garand. To say the M14 was not suited for "general use" when we equipped millions with the Garand is nonsense. As a semi-auto battle rifle, the M14 (like the FAL) is well suited.

    Also, my understanding is that the M14s being brought back into use are going one per fire team - meaning two per squad. Hardly for use in "a very specific role" if what I read is correct. A fire team would thus have one M4, one M4 with M203, one SAW, and one M14. That's a whole lotta M14s.

    Alas, the whole ammo cost thing is a moot point for me - I can't even afford to shoot that much .223.

    For moving inside the home, a short carbine is indeed better suited - but IMHO, a pistol is even better suited. We'll leave that debate for another day.

    Oh, and congrats on grandfather-hood!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Well then,

    A bit of historical correction - the M14 was indeed intended for general issue. It was designed to replace both the semi-auto Garand rifle, and the full-auto BAR. At that, the M14 (like the FN FAL) failed - it is simply too light in weight for the average infantryman to control on full-auto. Let's not forget the general issue rifle in WWII was the .30-06 Garand. To say the M14 was not suited for "general use" when we equipped millions with the Garand is nonsense. As a semi-auto battle rifle, the M14 (like the FAL) is well suited.

    Also, my understanding is that the M14s being brought back into use are going one per fire team - meaning two per squad. Hardly for use in "a very specific role" if what I read is correct. A fire team would thus have one M4, one M4 with M203, one SAW, and one M14. That's a whole lotta M14s.

    Alas, the whole ammo cost thing is a moot point for me - I can't even afford to shoot that much .223.

    For moving inside the home, a short carbine is indeed better suited - but IMHO, a pistol is even better suited. We'll leave that debate for another day.

    Oh, and congrats on grandfather-hood!
    Now that's just mean!

    What I heard was much different than you. When I said general use, I meant now as my understanding was quite a bit different and more on a squad or even platoon level as a DM. I'm going to try to find what I read and pm it to you so I don't continue with my derailing of this thread... A lot of this also came from conversations with a few guys, one who took part in the SCAR H initial fielding. All of them were crying to get rid of it and most that we're given me left it in the vehicle when out on foot.

    Oh, and even if it was per fireteam or squad, it would still be a specific role as only those teams that may need it would have it issued..

    Sorry Sticks.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #66
    RKM
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    When it comes to a .30 carbine, I honestly think it's hard to beat an AK47. Sure it's not the same power as a x51, but most carbines offered in x51 are pricey for most people. An AK47, anybody can buy. Even a cheap AR-10 runs over $1500 that I've seen.

    I've actually been wanting an M1-A rifle to fill a specific role, but it wouldn't replace an AK or AR, that's for sure. The M1-A is an awesome looking rifle, IMO.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Well, during the intermission...

    Is there some sort of stigma associated with making a "Frankenstein" AR as opposed to buying a factory complete and only changing the furniture?
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Well, during the intermission...

    Is there some sort of stigma associated with making a "Frankenstein" AR as opposed to buying a factory complete and only changing the furniture?
    No. Should you ever sell it, you usually get more when parting it out a bit anyway, whether that's just separating the upper and lower (I never really sell lowers) or breaking the upper down.. and I'm getting to the point where I don't sell uppers, I just rebarrel them.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #69
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    Went to a couple of my preferred local FFLs yesterday to look around at some ARs and do a little touchy feely. Got an interesting below MSRP quote on a DD v5 middy. Afraid to look to see shat I could get a complete Noveske, Larue, and LMT at. Both will still hit or exceed my current build price by the time I get done tweaking for comfort. I gotta quit shopping and stick with what I got going.

    One shop had about 24 (including an Olymic for $1750 - had to laugh for Sixto on that one) in .308, 6.5 (brand new build, never fired, on consignment due to ammo costs), none of the brands were parts of my build list or even on the recommended list from page 1 (including colt), some I never heard of. There was one brand (LMMT? - not LMT) that had the MUR and VIS one piece rail. Just about all of them had Magpul stocks, and even at full extension, I still needed at least another inch in the LOP to be comfortable, which verified I am sticking with the eMod for the length. Damn my freakish long arms and neck. At least I got to feel a MIAD grip, and I likey.

    They had a couple of Uppers and a Spikes complete lower for a $$ that I can not remember. I wrote it off because it was going to hit $500+ by the time I changed furniture.

    Weapon lights - smallish 2 cell light that you normally carry in a holster (hand light) or something more compact dedicated to weapon mount?
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #70
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    And the purchasing has begun, at least for the furniture and fluff items. Still waiting to hear from Centurion on upper build.

    I have....well I am choosing to get all the components for the complete build from 8 different retailers since I keep running into "Out of stock" or better pricing here and there.

    Anyone here ever hear of Outdoor Gear Barn(.com), or do business with them? Stupid low pricing on a lot of items.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #71
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    Help, I'm hemorrhaging cash! I hit an artery, can't stop the flow!

    :shudder:

    Well, I just got done placing the orders for all but the upper, which I will knock out tomorrow.

    Able to catch a few Black Friday, and Cyber Monday deals. Still going to peak at somewhere in the $2500.

    I'll update the final component list tomorrowish. I'm in a state of shock right now.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  13. #72
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Help, I'm hemorrhaging cash! I hit an artery, can't stop the flow!

    :shudder:

    Well, I just got done placing the orders for all but the upper, which I will knock out tomorrow.

    Able to catch a few Black Friday, and Cyber Monday deals. Still going to peak at somewhere in the $2500.

    I'll update the final component list tomorrowish. I'm in a state of shock right now.
    I was in a state of shock last night when I ordered a $40 lower 1/3 mount for my Eotech.... I have a love/hate relationship with spending money habit. I get cool things, but then my money is gone :(

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I have some selectors, a Gear Sector vert grip and Scout Light offset mount (and maybe a DD fixed front sight) in the E&E for sale if you need any of those things. All are new or close to it.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    OK, here is the final list.

    Centurion CHF 16" barrel w/A2
    Badger LP gas block, mid length gas system
    Centurion 12" C4 Rail w/ rail covers
    MUR-1A reciver
    Gunfighter Mod 4 charging handle
    PSA Auto BCG
    PSA lower and LPK
    Vltor eMod A5 stock
    Magpul MIAD grip
    Troy folding BUIS
    Troy ambi bolt and mag release
    Ambi Safety
    Magpul AFG1
    Streamlight TLR1-S
    BFG VCAS - padded
    Troy PRO sling mount (rear) and swivel (front)
    Aimpoint PRO
    Kalinka Optics 6x42 POSP scope, ill ret, 400m Siminov rangefinder.
    4 Magpul 20rd mags

    Ordered from Centurion, BCM, PSA, Botach, Outdoor Gear Barn, Kalinka, Primary Arms, and Gunbroker.

    I should have read the M4 Black Friday thread before I started ordering, could have saved another $100+/-. But, Botach had a 10% off orders over $100, PSA had the lower and auto BCG on sale, I was hoping for the 10% off on BCM, but that was over.

    $2425 before the scope (which was a last minuet "Ahhh, wth, why not.")

    In retrospect I could have picked up a DD 16" or other single brand carbine for slightly less, but I have confidence that I have picked some of the best of the best components, which will make it somewhat unique and hopefully very reliable.

    Damn the furniture and accessories. Those really sting. Still need to grab a rifle bag, ammo (ug) and I am sure that I missed something that will hit me later.

    Pics to follow sometime mid December - (I promise Sixto).
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    My next barrel will be a 14.5" or 12.5" Centurion. Monty makes some really good stuff. You built yourself a very nice rifle there Sticks. I have a KAC ambi and both the 45 and 90 Bad-ASS selectors in the E&E, I could have given one of them to you cheap.

    I'm looking forward to seeing it completed. Sounds like an awesome rifle. If you make it down here if we can set up a hunt/shoot, I'd love to get a little time on it. It should balance perfectly.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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