August 16th, 2006 03:51 PM
Less than Lethal 12ga ammo
Has anyone out there got advice on less than lethal ammo for 12ga? (LEO's?)
I'm setting up a Cash in Transit Unit for my company here in Kigali Rwanda (Central Africa). We will be carrying South African Protecta shotguns (from the maker of the Street sweeper).
I have been looking at ALS Technologies Tri-dent ammo.
Anyone out there shot this stuff? What are the ballistics like?
Any info appreciated.
August 16th, 2006 09:36 PM
Can you not use buck shot? I have no experiance with less than lethal rounds. I am a civilian and prefer the lethal ones.
August 17th, 2006 12:57 AM
Not sure why you would want to use a less lethal ammo either. If you are in danger, you are in danger and if you have to shoot you have to shoot. LEO's carry LLR's for problem situations that do not require lethal force such as someone high on drugs or something like that.
Please post further info on your situation as to why you would think a LLR would be the way to go?
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August 17th, 2006 01:13 AM
I don't know the name but - the bean-bag deal seems a useful LTL round. It apparently has an impact like a 70 mph baseball.
But also I wonder whether LTL only, is best way to go - unless mandated.
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August 17th, 2006 03:17 AM
I agree that I would rather use buck for all 12 rounds but have been told to check into the LTL options for the first round.
The “recommended” (by police here and law in Tanzania) procedure for engaging BGs is one “warning shot” fired in the air after a verbal comand. Now I would rather my guys fire the “warning shot” at the BG and have the capability to knock him down but still be legal. Of course their safety comes first. I have always trained my guys that if they see a weapon forget the warning shot and acquire a target. Most of the time the police are happy to have a dead BG but to be on the safe side we need to show that we are not just a bunch of trigger happy cowboys. Even LTL like the ALS if fired at center mass can be lethal and if it gives them time to get into the armored car then it has done the job and we aren’t tied up in court.
We also have the problem here of a lot of people walking around on the streets who should by all rights be in a padded cell somewhere. Unfortunately there are not enough facilities in Rwanda to handle all of these people who can become violent but are almost never armed or if they are they have an edged weapons rather than firearms.
I’m just investigating this at the moment and wanted to know if anyone has fired this stuff before and could comment on ballistics and more to the point if anyone has had to use it in real life how effective is it.
August 17th, 2006 04:22 AM
I don't think such a thing truly exists. Non-lethal rubber bullets, bird shot, etc: all have resulted in deaths where none was expected. If it's 10ga or 12ga, IMO, you've got an efficient stopper. Want it less than lethal? Probably a 20ga or .410 is the better bet.
Originally Posted by john in Africa
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self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
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August 17th, 2006 09:18 AM
I think I need to explain a little.
I'm not planning on loading all Less than Lethal.
I am training local guards and want to have the FIRST round Less than Lethal but all others will be 000 buck shot....What the company is trying to do is limit our liability but still give the guards the means of protectiing themselves.
We will be using the Protecta (picture here)
So we have 12 rounds, plenty of back up.
August 17th, 2006 10:16 AM
I don't think such a thing truly exists. Non-lethal rubber bullets, bird shot, etc: all have resulted in deaths where none was expected.
Just because it says less than lethal does not mean it is going to never kill. Rounds like the beanbag round can be lethal if it compromises an eyesocket, but the point is to deliver a massive amount of pain in order to strongly discourage further action.
Its all hedonistic calculus when it come to less than lethals. 000 rubber buck is quite capable of bringing a fair amount of pain at medium to long ranges, but is quite innaccurate: the advantage though over bean bags and baton rounds is that rubber buck will penetrate skin at close range, while the low energy high velocity bean ad baton rounds will not (most of the time)
If I were in the situation you were, the only less than lethal round I would load is some sort of rubber buck shot, because if the SHTF and a warning shot isnt warranted I would want something that had a high likleyhood of at least severely wounding a BG at closerange on the first shot.
August 17th, 2006 01:28 PM
Lightfield has LTL slugs, said to be accurate to 100 yards (or was it 75). They also have rubber 00 buck, I have got a handfull of these in my range bag that were given to me by one of their R&D people.
August 21st, 2006 06:10 AM
I was lookign at either the ALS Tri-dent (3 each, 46 grain, 55 durometer rubber projectiles) or the hornets nest ( 21 each, .308 diameter, 55 durometer rubber projectiles) The ALS balistics report says that the Tri-dent "accommodates tactical situations from 10 feet to 25 yards." while the hornets nest is 10 to 30 feet.
I'll go check out the Lightfield rounds. All I had found with much info was ALS Tech.
Thanks again for the info.
August 21st, 2006 06:33 AM
well i work with the sheriffs dept and they use the bean bags and they tend to wake up the party being hit with them. accuracy is what you would expect from bean bag. if accuracy is an issue i would suggest the rubber slugs. the rubber buck shot would not be a bad idea for close range but if you want from close to med range and still have enough punch my recommendation would be the slugs. they are accurate and you dont have to worry about the pattern to big or hitting bystanders. just my opinion though
August 26th, 2006 03:00 AM
Empty the buck shot out of the first round. Reload it w/ rock salt and aim for the legs.
August 26th, 2006 09:23 AM
A GOOD choice for your intended use would probably be the single projectile The Rubber Rocket LTL as far as accuracy & a slightly greater knock down/incapacitation rating than most "multiple projectile" Less Than Lethals. That one seems to be one of the more popular rubber projectiles "out there" offering a substantial FP energy punch compared to many other 2 & tri-ball type multiples.
Look at The Rubber Rocket or The Power Punch might be a good one for you but, I don't know about the accuracy of it.
Doggineit...I'll have to hunt for for a source of supply for you.
Look forward to another post here shortly.
August 26th, 2006 09:32 AM
August 26th, 2006 02:39 PM
Firequest has some other rounds that would probably be LTL as well as the "rubber slug" ones
But I'd love to try out the "flame thrower" one!!
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