Best Home defense Gun (opinions)

This is a discussion on Best Home defense Gun (opinions) within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot This is the second time in the last couple hours I've thought to myself: what the heck is this guy ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array Rotorhead84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    This is the second time in the last couple hours I've thought to myself: what the heck is this guy talking about?
    Cool story bro. Care to elaborate on your position, or explain why you think I'm wrong? Or do you just like following me around from thread to thread to troll me?

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorhead84 View Post
    I also really find it hard to believe any projectile traveling 3200 FPS is going to stop in 1 or two layers of sheet rock. I can punch a hole in 2 layers of sheet rocking using a lot less energy and dispersing that lesser energy over a much larger surface area. I'd like to see information that says otherwise. I keep an open mind, maybe I'll change my tune. I'm sure you've heard of the box o' truth, but he has done some work in this regard and his results are contrary to what you are saying.
    Thanks for not taking it wrong, most would start name calling by now as I have a tendency to come across in a less than positive way while not intending too. I'll dig it up for you and post a link here or PM you. I understand why you think the way you do and I did as well for quite a while. Keep in mind, this applies to OTM ammo like Mk262 and 75gr TAP, not m855 obviously or any of the barrier blind loads.

    I'm not an expert, so my explanation will likely do more harm than good, but due to the light weight and very high velocity, the round quickly and violently dumps a lot of its energy early on and fragments. Those smaller fragments quickly loose velocity and stop. Now, don't get me wrong here, they still penetrate and are still deadly, but just not AS MUCH as some others. I know it seems backwards that a round that will penetrate a level 2 vest will also NOT over-penetrate, but surprisingly it does. I'm not suggestion you fire into the wall separating you from your child's room, by any means though!

    On a side note, I saw buckshot fired from 5 to 10 feet go into a couch cushion and back of the couch and barely penetrate into the wall behind it. I also saw a 9mm (NATO FMJ) impact the wall and not exit the other side. This was fired from the interior into the interior/exterior wall.

    Do me a favor here, keep an open mind, Goole search it for 75gr TAP or similar rounds, and I will dig up everything I can and post it for you. I'm not trying to change your mind on what works for you in any way, I just want you and everyone else to have all the knowledge possible on these subjects as it will help the next guy too.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorhead84 View Post
    Cool story bro. Care to elaborate on your position, or explain why you think I'm wrong? Or do you just like following me around from thread to thread to troll me?
    How is a shotgun definitely a better weapon than an ar?

    A decent stock ar can be accurate up to 500 yards. A shotgun is accurate up to 60-100 yards with a standard bead site.

    A 12 gauge is a great weapon, and it has tremendous stopping power, but I don't think it can be considered definitively better than an assault rifle.

  5. #64
    Member Array All_Business's Avatar
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    I dont really care for shotguns as a home defense weapon. Only reason is I cant personally account for each of the bullets fired. My 1187 is my favorite range gun, though.
    "When that gun comes out of that holster; it's business time." -Chris Costa

  6. #65
    RKM
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    If I'm defending my home from potentially violent robbers (which is most likely), I'm probably going to grab my USP45. If somebody is hunting me down, I'll probably stay put and grab my Mossberg 500. If my house is being invaded by armored super villains or Russians, I'm grabbing my AR and fighting until I die.

    It's great to have a plan. But in reality, grab what you can, fight with what you can, and what ever it is, it'll be whatever is closest and loaded. The best home defense gun for one person is different than others. There is no "best". Use what you want. Use what you need in different situations. Use what you have.

    If all you have is a .38 revolver, you'll probably be just fine. If you want to use a 10.5" suppressed AR, you'll probably be just fine. Use what works for you. Like I said, I prefer my USP45 as it's quick, easy to grab, easy to get around with and I feel has plenty of power with 12+1 of .45ACP ready to go. I keep other "stuff" ready for different situations, but I'm confident that my USP45 will likely take take of 95% of any situations that would be likely to take place.

    Actually during the day, if I'm just lounging around in sweatpants and a t-shirt and have no plans of leaving the house soon, I keep my j-frame in my pocket or within reach.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorhead84 View Post
    -I would never in my life recommend anyone wielding an assault rifle inside a home unless they live alone in the middle of nowhere. For obvious reasons

    -You won't need 30 rounds if you blow a hole in the first badguy the size of a softball. When you can see right through the guy in front of you, you tend to change your mind about wanting to attack someone.

    -It will most likely be dark, and unless the badguy got the jump on you, or you're an idiot and give yourself away the badguy will have no idea where you are. And he'll have no idea what you have, so what it looks like doesn't matter at all. Shotgun wins in the "noise" department hands down. Noise and looks should be at the very bottom of the list of anyone being serious about looking for a home defense weapon. Life is not a movie. If there is more than 1 attacker they're most likely going to flee once their homie hits the dirt.

    -1 well placed 00 buck in the chest will stop an attack. Can't say the same for 5.56 unless you get a headshot. I am personally going to dump 5-7 rounds center mass if I'm stuck with 5.56, so yeah, you'll need 30 rounds. 5.56 is not a 1 shot, one kill platform. A 12 gauge shotgun certainly is.

    -Anyone who is decently experienced with a shotgun can fire very quick follow up shots and manage recoil very well. A shotgun is not harder to shoot than an AR.


    All of that said, something is always better than nothing, and if an AR is the best platform for you, then use it. I am not trying to convert you. I've put probably 10,000+ rounds downrange from the M16 platform, it is a good weapon, but it is purpose built, it is not a weapon designed to be "all around" good. A shotgun is. And if you bring reliability into the equation you simply cannot beat the simplicity and reliability of big name designed pump action shotguns.


    To argue that an AR platform is a better all around weapon or a better home defense weapon is a pretty foolish stance IMO. If it works for you, great, but there is not a single thing that an AR does better than a shotgun besides being able to put lead downrange accurately at medium ranges. Which is a non-factor for home defense.
    1. What obvious reasons? It's a well known fact that both hollow points and buck shot have a greater potential to penetrate deeper and cause greater injury through walls than non-barrier blind .223/5.56 loads.

    2. Have you ever seen an autopsy report of a person shot at close range with buck shot? I have seen more than one, and I can assure you that there is no hole you can see through. (And you tried to tell me life isn't a movie...) Yes, it does make quick a nasty wound, though. I'm currently looking at an autopsy photo from Dr. Dominick J. DiMaio who is the former chief medical examiner of New York City, in which a man was shot at "close range" in the neck with a 12 gauge, and there is quite a large and nasty entrance wound (estimating 2" diameter), but you cannot see through the victims neck.

    3. You are correct about the noise difference. The report I was looking at was comparing a 26" shotgun barrel to a 16" 5.56 barrel. The 18" 12 gauge barrel is louder. However, extremely loud noise is intimidating, and it will make extra attackers think twice before running into the line of fire.

    4. One well placed .22 LR in the chest will stop an attack, and I've seen it done. There's a well known video of an officer on a traffic stop who was instantly capacitated by a BG with one shot from a .22 LR. The bullet went through the armpit into the heart, and the officer was dead right there. If a .22 LR can kill in one shot, why would a 5.56x45mm round with FAR superior ballistics not be able to do so? One shot kills are highly unlikely, however, and if I'm firing one shot, there WILL be two to 29 more.

    [Note: Why does my computer think "capacitated isn't a word?]

    5. I agree about the shotgun being easy to use with training. However, I've never seen anyone with a shotgun fire six shots at three attackers in four seconds. (We'll say the shotgun only needs to fire three round to be fair). Sure, the shotgun is probably better in a one on one scenario, however the AR is better suited to handle multiple attackers quickly. I'll give up a SLIGHT amount of firepower in a one on one scenario, (remember that just about anyone who is professionally trained with an AR can put four or five shots to COM in two seconds), to gain an advantage in a situation where I'm normally highly disadvantaged.

    6. A shotgun is designed to be "all around" good? Have you ever tried to hit anything with a shotgun at ranges over 100 yards, or even 100+ FEET for that matter? I'm not knocking the shotgun by any means as it's a tremendous CQ and hunting weapon, but it's not "all around" good.

    7. You can call me foolish if you want, but I could care less. I've seen first hand what one well designed 5.56x45mm bullet can do to a person; the entrance wound may be tiny, but the damage beneath was devastating.

    EDIT: Also, see here: http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/select_556indoor.html
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer2213 View Post
    Most of the people commenting on this are assuming that you can stay calm and focussed in a very stressful dangerous and potentially life threatening situation. Being comfortable and knowing how to use whatever weapon you choose is most important. No one can really know how they will react until it happens to them. The AR's would be great if your a military or very well trained person. But a 12 gauge with good personal defense rounds and a good pistol with a high capacity mag is never a bad idea. Plus with an AR u have to be on point to hit your target. A good shotgun round u just gotta point in that general area. Plus there are very few things more intimidating than the sound of a pump shotgun!!! That right there will make people run right there. Plus I wanna know that if somethin happens to me or I'm not home, my girlfriend doesn't have to be super accurate to hit a potential threat. Personally when I hear somethin messing around my house I take a look with a Remington 870 express with PDX rounds loaded up and a ruger Sr9c with a 17 round clip in my waist for backup. And as I'm looking around my girl waits with a 20 gauge and .38 special.
    You've obviously never used an AR with an Aimpoint RDS or EoTech HWS; at distances 75 feet and under, it's actually harder to miss than it is to hit.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #68
    Ex Member Array Rotorhead84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    How is a shotgun definitely a better weapon than an ar?

    A decent stock ar can be accurate up to 500 yards. A shotgun is accurate up to 60-100 yards with a standard bead site.

    A 12 gauge is a great weapon, and it has tremendous stopping power, but I don't think it can be considered definitively better than an assault rifle.
    -I'm well aware of the capabilities of the M16 platform. I have exensive experience with it. I can stay in the black all day at 500 yards and iron sights. A fool engages at 500 yards. Unless you're being shot at already (by fools) you cannot say with 110% certainty that what you are engaging is a threat, and you're setting yourself up for that prision time you're so terrified of.

    -A shotgun is reliably accurate at about 150 yards when using a decent slug. That range increases with a rifled barrel and a sabot round. But that is impractical for a purpose built defense weapon.

    -The variety of ammo that can be chosen from is what makes a shotgun a better ALL AROUND weapon (like I have been saying the whole time). Again, birdshot = varmit gun, buckshot = badguys and larger game, Slug = Badguys at range and even larger game. You do not get that versatility in an AR with just a simple change of ammunition. You're swapping bolts, uppers of different calibers, etc etc etc. You can transform a 12 gauge shotgun into something that can knock a small bird out of the air, or take a small rabbit or whatever without blowing it to pieces, to a .73 caliber rifle. All by selection of ammo.

    -I am not trying to convert you. This is my opinion. If I was limited to only being able to own one single weapon. I would choose a 12 gauge shotgun because of the versatility of the platform. Don't like it? I can't help you with that.

  10. #69
    Ex Member Array Rotorhead84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    1. What obvious reasons? It's a well known fact that both hollow points and buck shot have a greater potential to penetrate deeper and cause greater injury through walls than non-barrier blind .223/5.56 loads.

    2. Have you ever seen an autopsy report of a person shot at close range with buck shot? I have seen more than one, and I can assure you that there is no hole you can see through. (And you tried to tell me life isn't a movie...) Yes, it does make quick a nasty wound, though. I'm currently looking at an autopsy photo from Dr. Dominick J. DiMaio who is the former chief medical examiner of New York City, in which a man was shot at "close range" in the neck with a 12 gauge, and there is quite a large and nasty entrance wound (estimating 2" diameter), but you cannot see through the victims neck.

    3. You are correct about the noise difference. The report I was looking at was comparing a 26" shotgun barrel to a 16" 5.56 barrel. The 18" 12 gauge barrel is louder. However, extremely loud noise is intimidating, and it will make extra attackers think twice before running into the line of fire.

    4. One well placed .22 LR in the chest will stop an attack, and I've seen it done. There's a well known video of an officer on a traffic stop who was instantly capacitated by a BG with one shot from a .22 LR. The bullet went through the armpit into the heart, and the officer was dead right there. If a .22 LR can kill in one shot, why would a 5.56x45mm round with FAR superior ballistics not be able to do so? One shot kills are highly unlikely, however, and if I'm firing one shot, there WILL be two to 29 more.

    [Note: Why does my computer think "capacitated isn't a word?]

    5. I agree about the shotgun being easy to use with training. However, I've never seen anyone with a shotgun fire six shots at three attackers in four seconds. (We'll say the shotgun only needs to fire three round to be fair). Sure, the shotgun is probably better in a one on one scenario, however the AR is better suited to handle multiple attackers quickly. I'll give up a SLIGHT amount of firepower in a one on one scenario, (remember that just about anyone who is professionally trained with an AR can put four or five shots to COM in two seconds), to gain an advantage in a situation where I'm normally highly disadvantaged.

    6. A shotgun is designed to be "all around" good? Have you ever tried to hit anything with a shotgun at ranges over 100 yards, or even 100+ FEET for that matter? I'm not knocking the shotgun by any means as it's a tremendous CQ and hunting weapon, but it's not "all around" good.

    7. You can call me foolish if you want, but I could care less. I've seen first hand what one well designed 5.56x45mm bullet can do to a person; the entrance wound may be tiny, but the damage beneath was devastating.

    EDIT: Also, see here: :: Ammo Oracle
    1. As you have guessed, I was referring to over penetration. Will everyone know to buy this special magic fairy dust ammo that travels 3200fps but won't penetrate a wall? Doubtful. Recommending the use of a high power rifle inside a home with out a giant disclaimer to make sure to buy this magic ammo sounds like a bad idea to me.

    2. No I have not. I have heard stories. Perhaps they were embellished? But I have seen pictures, and you could see clean through.

    4. The word you are looking for is incapacitated. And I don't disagree with anything you posted in point #4

    5. Agree mostly again. A pump action shotgun is only as fast as the person wielding it. A average joe working a 12 gauge is fast enough to stop multiple attackers. If faced with multiple determined attackers I want a SAW anyway. haha!

    6. If you rate "all around" goodness on range alone, then we have different definitions of "all around" goodness.

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer2213 View Post
    Most of the people commenting on this are assuming that you can stay calm and focussed in a very stressful dangerous and potentially life threatening situation. Being comfortable and knowing how to use whatever weapon you choose is most important. No one can really know how they will react until it happens to them. The AR's would be great if your a military or very well trained person. But a 12 gauge with good personal defense rounds and a good pistol with a high capacity mag is never a bad idea. Plus with an AR u have to be on point to hit your target. A good shotgun round u just gotta point in that general area. Plus there are very few things more intimidating than the sound of a pump shotgun!!! That right there will make people run right there. Plus I wanna know that if somethin happens to me or I'm not home, my girlfriend doesn't have to be super accurate to hit a potential threat. Personally when I hear somethin messing around my house I take a look with a Remington 870 express with PDX rounds loaded up and a ruger Sr9c with a 17 round clip in my waist for backup. And as I'm looking around my girl waits with a 20 gauge and .38 special.

    The last time I shot a man and the next time I almost did, I was extremely focused and relaxed at that very moment. This was during a carjacking with one of the carjacker's handguns. The next time (didn't fire) I had a man coming at me with a crowbar at 3am while they were trying to break into my home and I happened upon them.

    Everyone is different, but I believe if you're using any weapon for defensive purposes, a lot of training and practice of that training should be fit into the schedule.

    The sound of a pump shotgun is a very, very bad myth. I don't what them hearing anything if I can help it.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    The sound of a pump shotgun is a very, very bad myth. I don't what them hearing anything if I can help it.
    +1. I hope I never need to put any of the things we talk about here on DC into practice. But if I do ever have someone break into my home I don't plan on giving them any "fair" warnings. The "fair" warning was the locked doors and windows they needed to break in order to get in.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear.357 View Post
    I'm just looking to see what gun gets the best rep. Best AR's, shotguns and pistols. Also whats the best for backyard fun (affordability and dependability).
    IMO, your questions are too subjective and too broad.
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. - Thomas Jefferson

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  14. #73
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    Well, this thread sure opened the proverbial "can of worms" !
    If some BG is coming into my house, I will not be shooting from 100 yards distance. Most likely, from 10 yards distance or much less.
    My 18 inch, 12 gauge Wingmaster is already chambered with a round of Number 4 buckshot; (safety on and no children in my house), and backed up by 00 buckshot.
    The BG will hear a loud boom BEFORE (and if he ever does) hears the sound of the pump action.
    This makes ME feel safe in my own home.
    That said, this is not a fun gun to shoot; I will get out my AR or other rifles or handguns if I want to hunt or plink cans..
    Last edited by mr.natural; March 5th, 2012 at 11:57 AM. Reason: wrong wording of quotation

  15. #74
    Senior Member Array Cokeman's Avatar
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    My Mossberg 500 is pretty fun to shoot.
    Glock 23 - CZ 452 ZKM Special
    Walther P22 - LMT STD 16
    Mossberg 500A - Kahr P380
    Henry H001Y - Winchester 12
    Smith & Wesson M&P Shield
    Mossberg 500B - Marlin 336Y

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    The one you get to first.

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