Optics question to those with military experience

This is a discussion on Optics question to those with military experience within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I know that sometime some members of a unit are issued magnified optics like the ACOG. My question is this - What are you trained ...

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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Optics question to those with military experience

    I know that sometime some members of a unit are issued magnified optics like the ACOG. My question is this - What are you trained to do if you have enter and clear a building? How are you trained to use a rifle with a magnified optic in a close quarters environment?

    Thanks!
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

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    Member Array CVarner's Avatar
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    Look over the ACog and use the front sight post.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Not military so not trying to answer for them, but I have some experience with the ACOG at close ranges and indoors. Looking over it, using your laser if so equipped, using the rds mounted on top or using the Bindon aiming concept. Google it. Some guys get it great, others seem to never get it.

    The SOPMOD Block II program updated the optic from an ACOG to a Elcan Specter DR, which can switch from no magnification to 4x. Surely someone with more expertise will come along shortly.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    While their is the Bindon aiming concept, and you can use it. If you learn how to adapt to it, it will make using any red-dot style optic a whole lot better.

    A lot of it is more instinctive shooting. Firing a rifle with two hands at room's distance at a man sized target doesn't. Subconsciously you may use the front sight post, but it all happens to fast to make a decision about it.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    While their is the Bindon aiming concept, and you can use it. If you learn how to adapt to it, it will make using any red-dot style optic a whole lot better.

    A lot of it is more instinctive shooting. Firing a rifle with two hands at room's distance at a man sized target doesn't. Subconsciously you may use the front sight post, but it all happens to fast to make a decision about it.
    So basically it sounds like your talking about point shooting with a rifle?
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

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    As a former Navy man I can teach you plenty about grey paint. ACOGs... not so much. : (
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    So basically it sounds like your talking about point shooting with a rifle?

    Basically. You want to have both eyes open while doing so as well, in order to maintain your peripheral vision, which is something the Bindon aiming concept takes into account as well.

    If you have a range where you can safely do so with a rifle, try this.

    Stand square to a man sized target with 5-7 yards distance with a rifle held at the low ready. If you have a timer or something, use it, if not, just raise the rifle and fire as fast as you can into the target. The more you do it, the more comfortable you will get with it.

    Something interesting to note with both AR style and AK rifles, is that the front sight is a couple of inches higher than the bullet when it leaves the muzzle. So if you are going off just the front sight, you need to remember to account for that while shooting at such a close range.
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    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    Better yet, you may still have time to sign up for Pat Roger's Basic Carbine course in Boone County, IN - June 6-7. Highly recommend it.

    E.A.G. Tactical
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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    A good trick for the front sight height over bore at room distance is to set the front sight on top of the rear aperture instead of viewing the front post through the rear aperture. Of course holding your red dot 2.5" over works too, but it's it something many take into account, even those with experience. So, shoot high center mass with a red dot works too.

    As for both eyes open, this should be the standard taught for pretty much all shooting. I can't remember ever closing one eye when using my ACOG. A good way to learn to use an ACOG indoors is cover the front lens completely and keep both eyes open.

    The Bindon aiming concept isn't unique to ACOG a Buckeye surely knows, it just comes from Bindon, who designed the reticle. In order for this to work, all you need is a magnified optic with a lighted reticle. Still, nothing beats a red dot optic in my opinion.

    I can teach guys that are stuck with ACOGs all day long to clear structures, but irons and a light or a red dot (and a light) will almost always give better results. Also, it's pretty hard to miss center mass with a rifle at room or hallway distance.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Rollo, what brought this up? Just curious.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Jon brought up another great point.

    I do the blocked reticle drill with my Aimpoint a lot, since it has flip up covers.

    Do the same drill I outlined above, with an Aimpoint or similar with the front lens cover down, and both eyes open. The dot should just look like it is floating in the middle of the air.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    I was so new to red dots when I took my first carbine course that I actually shot better groups when we taped over the optics for a "failed optics" drill! Turned out I was "chasing the dot" and trying to achieve the perfect sight picture, rather than taking the first best shot.
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    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Rollo, what brought this up? Just curious.
    I'm still trying to decide between a 4x and red dot for my rifle. I like the 4x for anything beyond 50 yards and it increases accuracy by quite a bit but I like to be as versatile as possible and I'm not sure about the 4x for under 50 yards. The red dot is good for 0-300+ but not as accurate past 50 yards. I also don't like losing the ability to fire accurately at close range in side of a structure with the 4x vs a red dot. So, to answer your question... the usual Rollo probably thinking way to much into something :) Not that I ever think I'll need to deploy my rifle in a room clearing function (or deploy my rifle at all for that matter) but I I like to keep things as versatile as possible.
    -It is a seriously scary thought that there are subsets of American society that think being intellectual is a BAD thing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    I'm still trying to decide between a 4x and red dot for my rifle. I like the 4x for anything beyond 50 yards and it increases accuracy by quite a bit but I like to be as versatile as possible and I'm not sure about the 4x for under 50 yards. The red dot is good for 0-300+ but not as accurate past 50 yards. I also don't like losing the ability to fire accurately at close range in side of a structure with the 4x vs a red dot. So, to answer your question... the usual Rollo probably thinking way to much into something :) Not that I ever think I'll need to deploy my rifle in a room clearing function (or deploy my rifle at all for that matter) but I I like to keep things as versatile as possible.
    What about a 4x with an offset red dot?

    Or a red dot with a magnifier?
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    What about a 4x with an offset red dot?

    Or a red dot with a magnifier?
    This is what I run on one of my guns.....for competitions, not for the real thing. It does work nice though. I just roll the gun a little and the dot is right there.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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