I'm Shocked! Retiring 870 in favor of AR15 for HD. - Page 2

I'm Shocked! Retiring 870 in favor of AR15 for HD.

This is a discussion on I'm Shocked! Retiring 870 in favor of AR15 for HD. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm currently using the Black Hills 68gr OTM....

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Thread: I'm Shocked! Retiring 870 in favor of AR15 for HD.

  1. #16
    sgb
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    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
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    I'm currently using the Black Hills 68gr OTM.

    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition


  2. #17
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Check it out, it's also better than the handgun rounds by far:
    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
    Good article.

    #1 Buck is the recommended shell for your shotgun.
    You can have 128 .30 caliber forty grain pellets(eight rounds of #1 buckshot) or 30 .223 caliber sixty grain bullets. Decisions, decisions...
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    --Jason--

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    I still like my shotgun... take it look.

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    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  4. #19
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    If someone is threatening my life in my home, my immediate thoughts are on killing the SOB right there on the spot and not what's behind him, next door, or anywhere else. It's my life or his--right here; right now. If overpenetration becomes my primary concern, my firearms may as well be locked in a storage safe and unloaded. Just about any firearm round will penetrate interior walls.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    I've tested some .223 rounds (handloads) on water filled gallon jugs
    The Nosler Ballistic Tip and Hornady SP 55 gr. bullets had similar performance, obvious fragmentation striking the 2nd jug with just a fragment entering the 3rd.
    The Nosler Partition 60 gr. and Barnes TSX 55 gr. were similar too: penetration to the back of the 4th jug with a recovered diameter of . 41 - .46
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    I use M855 (Green tips) for my AR. If things get to the point of using my rifle to defend my home and loved ones, I may need to penetrate my interior walls to take out the threat. I'm more concerned about my ammo underperforming than over performing.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I had no idea the shotgun with 00 buck was actually worse for over penetration than a .223/556 round... knowing this I'm going to move my shotgun farther back in the safe and keep my AR15 more accessible.

    Am I the only one surprised by this?
    Not surprised, I've been posting that here for a long time, but people still question it! Keep in mind, the best choice for home defense 5.56 ammo would be something along the lines of 75gr TAP. As much as I prefer TSX now, it is a barrier blind load and will penetrate intermediate barriers much more than an OTM like Mk262, TAP, 855 or Mk318. FMJ is hit or miss, though it's still a little less deadly than most shotgun or handgun loads after penetrating an intermediate barrier like walls, doors or glass.

    I do think over-penetration is blown way out of proportion. I've seen buckshot stopped by a couch and barely make a mark in the wall behind it. I saw another instance where it buckshot stopped in cabinet door and could be seen lodged in the ceiling. I've seen quality 9mm and 45 ammo stop in the exterior wall when fired inside.

    If you search and search, you may come up with a couple instances of over-penetration causing injuries, but it's very rare. you'll find more of an errant round finding another target though.

    Make your hits and know your background. This is much more important than penetration. Of course, ammo consideration still plays a part, it's just secondary in my opinion to shot placement and knowing your backgrounds.

    Dr Gary Roberts (DocGKR on the forums) is one of the most respected experts, along with Dr. Martin Fackler, in the field of terminal ballistics. His research and guidance has been a major reason many state and federal agencies make the ammo choices they do. I've posted that "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo" many times and often link Dr Robert's sticky threads in the Terminal Ballistics subforum on m4carbine - http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    I'm sticking with the shotty for home defense. I'm loaded w/ #4 buck, 41 pellets per round.
    No need to overthink this one.
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

    "People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    It's not over thinking, it's picking the best tool for the job. If you happen to be more proficient with a shotgun, that's great. Others understand the advantages of a carbine for their needs and would also like the best ammo. Not over thinking, it's picking what's best.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    IIf you happen to be more proficient with a shotgun, that's great.
    This.

    I'm in the AR camp on this one. Not that I necessarily believe that one is inherently better or worse for HD than the other, but I'm infinitely better at low-light shooting, point shooting and follow-ups with an AR than a shotty.

    I may have to take a look at this TSX stuff. It looks interesting...

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xader View Post
    This.

    I'm in the AR camp on this one. Not that I necessarily believe that one is inherently better or worse for HD than the other, but I'm infinitely better at low-light shooting, point shooting and follow-ups with an AR than a shotty.

    I may have to take a look at this TSX stuff. It looks interesting...
    That's exactly it. You'll hear me talk a lot about the AR and how it's a great defensive weapon. It's not that I think it's leaps and bounds better than a shotgun for home defense, though I do think it has its advantages, it's because it's what I know more than anything else. I can run a shoot house like mad with an AR, while I'm slow and awkward, in comparison, with a shotgun. If I dedicated the same amount of time to the shotgun, it would be a different story. Also, if I knew for a fact I was only facing one bad guy and did not have to leave my bedroom, the shotgun would be a great choice. Personally, I have kids, one on the first floor and one on the second. I'll be moving through my home whether I want to or not.

    As for TSX, I've made a number of posts on it with some good info. This stuff brings the 5.56 up to another level. Great stuff, especially for law enforcement or where vehicles might be encountered. I'll dig up some posts.

    Here's another forum I'm on (also an active member on m4carbine, USN and Lightfighter) and this just came up again today, so I linked to this thread as well - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=369549
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    Great read and I totally agree with the findings, tests and assessments, however, I'm part of the handgun crowd and here's why...

    I also own handguns, a Remington 870 w/ 00 buckshot and a .223 Rock River Arms AR w/ all the bells and whistles. I think I've posted my 3 AM experience on this forum before?

    Anyway, long story short, when the ADT siren went off at 3:00 A.M. I grabbed my loaded 870 by my bedside and started to make my way to the kitchen on the other side of the house to silence the deafening alarm. In my whitey tighties I didn't get far before I went back and replaced my 870 with my .357 w/ CT laser sights. Even though this turned out to be a false alarm, I didn't know that and I was under allot of stress and confusion.

    My personal experience was the long gun was not suited for the configuration of my home. I found it awkward to maintain it in the narrow hallway and many tight corners. Admittedly, I had never practiced clearing the house with my HD shotgun. In fact, I had never practiced clearing the house with anything, because quite frankly, I never expected anything to invade my home. I had not even thought about if the alarm went off I would have to make my way from the master bedroom to the kitchen to silence the alarm, and answer ADT's call from the hardline phone in the living room.

    I guess my point is, what works for one person may not be as suitable for another.

    I did however learn my short comings and what improvements I needed.

    BTW. Everyone's heard the expression, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". Well, when you live in the sticks, try 1/2 an hour.

    I'm thankful it was a false alarm and it exposed what improvements I needed.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    That's why I always stress training with whatever you choose for home defense. My rifle is ready to go and easy to sling. I spend so much time on my rifles (and handguns) that it's second nature. If people don't have a lot of time training and aren't 100% confident, then a handgun can be a better choice. When training with a long gun, you have to train for a lot more than room clearing. Same goes for a handgun, it's just not as awkward at first.

    You can practice this at home if you have learned the fundamentals elsewhere. 10 minutes every few days can go a long way. If not, a handgun is certainly a very good choice.

    For the record, when I had those guys trying to break in (coincidentally, at 3am as well), I happened to have a handgun on me since I was woken (? - woken sounds odd for some reason) by my daughter and I was going outside to smoke.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; June 14th, 2012 at 10:16 AM.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array SubNine's Avatar
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    I use my Colt 6920 for HD and have it loaded with 55 gr. Hornady TAP .223
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

    I am the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative you were warned about!

  15. #30
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    45 and sometimes 357 rest near me at night along with a good tactical light. Two big, mean dogs (to strangers) in the house and one outside and I'm pretty much good to go. I also practice opening my combo safe without looking to emulate night time and not being able to see it just in case I have time and want more than the handgun. And although they don't store in my safe, I should be ok as long as I don't grab one of my kids' Airsoft "ARs." That would be a shocker, unleashing a fury of plastic.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

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