Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing - Page 3

Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing

This is a discussion on Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I took some comparison pics of a 2 and 4 MOA Aimpoint with and without the magnifier at about 150 meters. End of my street ...

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Thread: Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I took some comparison pics of a 2 and 4 MOA Aimpoint with and without the magnifier at about 150 meters.

    End of my street



    2 MOA Comp M4s at 150 meters



    4 MOA T1 at 150 meters



    2 MOA Comp M4s with Aimpoint 3x Magnifier



    4 MOA T1 with Aimpoint 3x Magnifier

    gasmitty, atctimmy and Aceoky like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  2. #32
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    So to clarify, this is not the proper use of an RDS....? :)
    atctimmy and Badey like this.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    You're an idiot! :D
    atctimmy and munch520 like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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  5. #34
    New Member Array cqb45's Avatar
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    Excellent post. Well done!

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    Very informative. Having no occassion to carry a RDS into harms way, I wonder whether the RDS does not create more problems than it solves. Among the more common:
    1. Forgot to turn it on. Saw this pretty often with race guns in IPSC. There are no buis on those guns.
    2. RDS ran out of juice or broke. IPSC again.
    3. Forgetting to turn it off. Always. Fortunately battery life is pretty long.
    4. As noted, killing time co-witnessing. I have a three dot crossbow RDS on a rifle that places a dot at the top of the post, middle, and base. I cannot help but to line it up perfectly before firing.

    I find that the most useful feature of the RDS is when it is off. The tube forms a giant ghost ring and the front sight provides an excellent quick picture. I notice this on my CX4 particularly since I leave the rear sight folded down. Takes much to long to acquire the tiny peep bole. I might argue that leaving the rear sight down but the front up provides a good compromise.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    I might add that I like having a red dot option for a magnifying rifle scope that places a dot in the center of the reticle. That way if you lose the dot, all is not lost. There is probable a distinction between dot reticles and plain RDSs, but I do not know the physics involved.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spalt View Post
    Very informative. Having no occassion to carry a RDS into harms way, I wonder whether the RDS does not create more problems than it solves. Among the more common:
    1. Forgot to turn it on. Saw this pretty often with race guns in IPSC. There are no buis on those guns.
    2. RDS ran out of juice or broke. IPSC again.
    3. Forgetting to turn it off. Always. Fortunately battery life is pretty long....
    That comes down to being ritual about a pre-fire weapons system check, and having spare batteries on hand in the range/go bag.

    The failures that I have seen have been off brands, and failure to use locktite (they fell off halfway into a stage/string).
    atctimmy likes this.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    Clearly you have been there Sticks. I guess it makes me nervous about shooting aids that fail in training/competition. Is it supposed to go better in the real deal? Was it Armson that used to market a radioactive dot scope. You did not actually look through it. With both eyes open it created an illusion of a dot suspended in space. Problem was it took practice to look only at the target.

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array DetChris's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post! I'm still learning about 1/3 co witnessing (which is different from what you're describing). And what I learned is the iron sights sit at the lower 1/3 of the optic so you can employ them as backup easily.

    The red dot would still be zeroed at the center of the optic and by raising your head (sacrificing cheek weld which is not as important in CQB) you'd pick up on it and utilize the red dot as normal.

    Only in the event of a malfunction would you drop back to a full cheek weld to pick up the back up iron sights and stay in the fight.



    Am I wrong?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Thank you for the information, Jon. If it will make you feel better, I'm willing to act like I hate you.

    The one-sentence way of putting the basic mistake I see with both red dots and lasers is that people treat them like they're the front sight. If you're new to the systems, and you've come up with 'front-sight-front-sight-front-sight' programmed in from your earlier training, there's a tendency to shift focus from target to dot as if it were the front sight. Once you get way from that, red dots can be very fast for acquisition and shooting.
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    I am not sure you quite have it Chris. Look at Jon's photos again. We you pop the rifle into the mount, you might see the dot in one of those different places within the scope. The bullet goes to the dot, the dot need not be centered in the tube.

    As you note, cheek weld is not critical for the dot. Helmets and other gear lend themselves to a head's up hold. Cheek weld is to steady the rifle, and ideally the cheek weld is the same for CQB and long distance.

    I would make the case that the front post ought to center in the tube with the rear sight down, or be folded down alog with the rear until needed. If left up, the tube then serves as a ghost ring. Having the buis in the lower field of vision adds nothing and is a distraction if the dot is working.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I'll reply to everything else shortly.

    For now, very rarely does a quality red dot fail. Eotech a had a strong of problems, plus they have a 4 or 8 hour auto shutoff and repair dot short battery life.

    An Aimpoint can be left on for a couple years in a bright enough setting. 5 to 10 years in the 8 of 12 setting, or similar. I leave mine on 9 or 10 and swap batteries every year for the hell of it.

    My Aimpoints are on, ready to go. My rifle is with me at work and it's always ready. Very rarely has an Aimpoint failed. Very rarely have the improves Eotechs failed.

    Before a shift or patrol, there's a systems check to go through. This for me includes a chamber check, mag check, zero check by co-witness, red dot brightness check, sling check, etc.

    The problems for LE or mil are so slim you hardly ever hear of them. The problems in competition were very unlikely from an Aimpoint mounted on a carbine or modern EoTech. Most likely it was the other types of optics. If it was an Aimpoint, it's my guess it was someone forgot to turn it on (meant to just be left on constantly) or they constantly leave it on setting 12 and after a couple years it took a five at the exact moment they went to the line.

    There re have been instances of bad optics of course and knobs breaking on the old Comp M2 during aggressive patrols after months and months, but those problems are no longer now that we're seeing the M4S and T1's being used, as well as he newer 553 and EXPS-3 EoTechs.

    Having said that, should an optic fail, I can easily make center mass hits from 7 yards with no irons using only the T1 housing. I can make 15 yard head shots using only the T1 housing and the front sight. Obviously it takes about a second to flip up the rear sight, and I'm back in the game 100%.

    The benefits are many and the risks are truly slim, especially for LE and EP roles.

    I have broken more folding irons than I have optics. I've broken four folding irons, I think. No optics except a knob on a Comp m2. That was not a real issue and was not caused by hard use.

    My t1 on my main rifle right now is on, ready to go. It's been banged around, dropped, smacked into barricades, car door frames, interior door frames, etc. no problems at all.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetChris View Post
    Thanks for the post! I'm still learning about 1/3 co witnessing (which is different from what you're describing). And what I learned is the iron sights sit at the lower 1/3 of the optic so you can employ them as backup easily.

    The red dot would still be zeroed at the center of the optic and by raising your head (sacrificing cheek weld which is not as important in CQB) you'd pick up on it and utilize the red dot as normal.

    Only in the event of a malfunction would you drop back to a full cheek weld to pick up the back up iron sights and stay in the fight.


    Am I wrong?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Spalt already covered it.

    Lower 1/3 is what I'm describing and it's what I use on all my rifles. Pretty much always have except for 7 or 8 years ago for a short time.

    Forgetting about the dot, the only difference between absolute cowitness and lower 1/3 cowitness is that the irons line up dead center of the optic for the absolute cowitness and will line up near the very bottom for the lower 1/3 cowitness.

    With folding irons, neither is really better than the other. With a fixed front, the lower 1/3 will give you a little better visibility. With fixed front and rear, lower 1/3 will clearly give you better visibility.

    The dot itself does not matter much at all. If I shoulder my rifle with the irons up in the lower 1/3 cowitness, my dot may be in the top left corner, far to the right, bottom left corner, dead center, or centered near the bottom and line up perfectly with my irons.

    Heres e's the best way I can describe it. Let's say instead of a red dot, I have a visible laser. When I zero my rifle for 100 yards, my irons will be dead on at 100 yards and so will my laser. If I'm looking through my irons, I'll see the laser basically sitting at the tip of my front sight post. If my rifle is in a mount when this happens and I get up and move only my head three inches to my left, my irons will no longer be in line with my eyes but the laser will still be visible on target where it was moments before. The irons will still be in line with the bullet impact on target. The only thing that has changed is my eyes behind the sights.

    So, a red dot acts very much the same way. We move out head around, it and he irons are both still in line with the target. But I can still see the red dot in line, but not the irons. Just like a laser. The red dot just happens to sit between the irons while the laser is in front of the irons.

    Manufacturers claim their red dot optics are parallax free. For the most part they are, but there can be a very slight shift. So, if I'm zeroing my red dot, I will position the dot inside the optic at the same place every time, just to err on the side of caution. When I'm shooting for groups, which is pretty rare, I'll keep the dot in the same place for each shot just so there's not a 1/4" shift down range, or whatever it may be.

    99.9% of the time, I fire as soon as my dot is on target, regardless of the dots position inside the optic or where it is in relation to the dot.

    This is one of the times when you can realize the true advantage of a red dot optic. If you position the dot inside the optic the same every time, you have little more than a painted front sight.

    Awkward shooting positions ions like a roll over prone is another area where the advantages will be realized.

    A big one for me is that my attention and focus stays on target, not a front sight. This is a big deal for me. Whether hunting or in a defensive situation, I don't want to think about or focus on anything but what I'm shooting.
    DetChris likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    In the first teo images the bullet will impact the same place, right where where you see the dot. If you tied a string to the rear sight and pulled it straight through the front sight and to the target, you'd see it'll end right at dot's position on target. Nothing is different except our eye position in these two photos.

    The third photo shows irons only.







    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spalt View Post
    Clearly you have been there Sticks. I guess it makes me nervous about shooting aids that fail in training/competition. Is it supposed to go better in the real deal? Was it Armson that used to market a radioactive dot scope. You did not actually look through it. With both eyes open it created an illusion of a dot suspended in space. Problem was it took practice to look only at the target.
    Trijicon has optics that have both Tritium, and battery power, so if the battery fails, the sight can operate via the Tritium. The Binden technique you mention of keeping both eyes open is very effective, particularly with zero magnification holosights and RDS. With a 1X optic, I don't know why you'd want one eye closed, anyway though. In regards to an optic failing, if you buy a $40 Chinese red dot, it's not going to last through abuse. If you spend the money on a quality Trijicon, EOtech, etc, they can take a LOT of abuse and still work just fine. You get what you pay for with optics. If you see them fail, almost every time I can bet you it'll be a cheap, poorly made optic that wasn't designed for anything but occassional range plinking, but has been put through it's paces in competitions, or training exercises where it was beaten to death. Buy quality gear, and know you can rely on it.

    I use flip-up BUIS in case the holosight fails. Otherwise, they stay down, but if they are used, my rifles are set up to "co-witness" through the holosight, so I don't have to waste time removing the optic to use the irons. That's pretty much the only time I really need those irons. Otherwise they stay folded down.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

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