Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing - Page 4

Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing

This is a discussion on Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio Spalt already covered it. Lower 1/3 is what I'm describing and it's what I use on all my rifles. Pretty much ...

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Thread: Red Dots - Basic Use and Co-Witnessing

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array DetChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Spalt already covered it.

    Lower 1/3 is what I'm describing and it's what I use on all my rifles. Pretty much always have except for 7 or 8 years ago for a short time.

    Forgetting about the dot, the only difference between absolute cowitness and lower 1/3 cowitness is that the irons line up dead center of the optic for the absolute cowitness and will line up near the very bottom for the lower 1/3 cowitness.

    With folding irons, neither is really better than the other. With a fixed front, the lower 1/3 will give you a little better visibility. With fixed front and rear, lower 1/3 will clearly give you better visibility.

    The dot itself does not matter much at all. If I shoulder my rifle with the irons up in the lower 1/3 cowitness, my dot may be in the top left corner, far to the right, bottom left corner, dead center, or centered near the bottom and line up perfectly with my irons.

    Heres e's the best way I can describe it. Let's say instead of a red dot, I have a visible laser. When I zero my rifle for 100 yards, my irons will be dead on at 100 yards and so will my laser. If I'm looking through my irons, I'll see the laser basically sitting at the tip of my front sight post. If my rifle is in a mount when this happens and I get up and move only my head three inches to my left, my irons will no longer be in line with my eyes but the laser will still be visible on target where it was moments before. The irons will still be in line with the bullet impact on target. The only thing that has changed is my eyes behind the sights.

    So, a red dot acts very much the same way. We move out head around, it and he irons are both still in line with the target. But I can still see the red dot in line, but not the irons. Just like a laser. The red dot just happens to sit between the irons while the laser is in front of the irons.

    Manufacturers claim their red dot optics are parallax free. For the most part they are, but there can be a very slight shift. So, if I'm zeroing my red dot, I will position the dot inside the optic at the same place every time, just to err on the side of caution. When I'm shooting for groups, which is pretty rare, I'll keep the dot in the same place for each shot just so there's not a 1/4" shift down range, or whatever it may be.

    99.9% of the time, I fire as soon as my dot is on target, regardless of the dots position inside the optic or where it is in relation to the dot.

    This is one of the times when you can realize the true advantage of a red dot optic. If you position the dot inside the optic the same every time, you have little more than a painted front sight.

    Awkward shooting positions ions like a roll over prone is another area where the advantages will be realized.

    A big one for me is that my attention and focus stays on target, not a front sight. This is a big deal for me. Whether hunting or in a defensive situation, I don't want to think about or focus on anything but what I'm shooting.
    Excellent. I get it.

    I'm wondering if there is a difference in performance between a reflex red dot and a holographic one like EOTech. Is there more parallex error with the reflex sights?


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  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetChris View Post
    Excellent. I get it.

    I'm wondering if there is a difference in performance between a reflex red dot and a holographic one like EOTech. Is there more parallex error with the reflex sights?
    An excellend question, and instead of regurgitating everything in this link, I'll just give it to you to read. It explains the differences in light wavelength pass-through, etc:

    Red Dot Sights / Reflex Sights & Holosights Explained
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    No, not much difference, but the link above should help answer the parallax questions.

    I like the simplicity of a single red dot. The eotech's reticle is nice because you can use the outer ring up close, the bottom of the ring for offset and also to estimate distance when farther away.

    I prefer an aimpoint because I leave them on 24 hours a day. Nothing to think about or turn on, just grab the rifle and go to work.
    GlassWolf and TX expat like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    well said. I love the EOtech EXPS3, but I'm not fond of the battery life.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    I did not know that the pros kept the dots on. That makes a lot of sense. I suspect the absolute co-witness would be more popular if the front circle hood of the HK and SIGs had been adopted on the AR family of rifles. The circular hood inside the circular tube is a natural pointer.

    For grins I asked permission to shoot and IPSC match or two using an UZI carbine and only the front sight. I thought it very effective. The value of the cheek weld, even a high weld, is underappreciated. As Jon indicates, the movement of the eyes around the tube is another variable that the dot largely negates.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spalt View Post
    Clearly you have been there Sticks. I guess it makes me nervous about shooting aids that fail in training/competition. Is it supposed to go better in the real deal? ...
    For a lot of people, that is the whole point. Actual Training courses, or competition, if something fails, you correct or work around it ASAP and keep going. I've only seen two people try to call a "Time Out" during such activities, both in IDPA, and they were told, "either keep going, or this stage is DNF". The ones in training classes were caught fiddling around with a problem were yelled at to keep shooting the string, you don't get to ponder a problem with your weapons system on a 2 way range.

    Training, competition, or practice, you should have the mindset in place that if something happens with your sighting system while engaging a target, you have a secondary plan of action to shift to immediately.

    If it's BUIS, visualizing a dot in the center of your RDS tube, point shooting, or a 45* rollover and aiming down the corner/valley of the rail (a method I would not use during a hostage exorcize). Make a decision right now and switch to plan B.

    Everything can fail, Murphy's law dictates it will happen at the worst possible time. The odds of it failing with a quality piece of equipment are exponentially lower than cheap equipment. Proper maintenance, systems checks, etc. greatly reduce the chance of a failure. Don't limit yourself or your equipment because of a "Might Happen".
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    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Spalt's Avatar
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    You nailed it again Sticks. The rds can turn into a high tech solution to a simple problem: putting a bullet or 2 into the kill zone. Slowing down to turn on the dot, or center the dot, or line up the dot with the buis all detract from the immediate business at hand. IPSC got out of control in this regard.

    Towards the end of my competition days I tried to keep it real, scores be damned. I carry chamber empty (another thread!), so I started that way in a match. If I had good cover, I would pocket partial mags. I like the idea of keeping the dot turned on for that same reason. I will make a concious effort to avoid lollipopping my dot at the range from now on.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of something getting out of control, it is the matter of the operator (term being loosely applied here) properly utilizing the equipment in their hands to complete the objective of the moment.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    That's also what the blaster on your hip is for.... should the primary fail.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  11. #55
    Member Array oldpaladin's Avatar
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    Great Post!

    John, your post is a necessary one, if one is to maximize one's abilities, and those of his/her weapon(s).

    Co-locating your red dot with your BUIS is vital, as in "belt and suspenders." If what should be your primary, as in being able to rapidly engage and service your targets, your red dot, should become unusable, those BUIS, which may have come as "priamary" with the weapon, becomes of paramount importance. Having, or taking the time to remove the red dot, may not be possible, as in being in the midst of hostile parties...

    Co-locating is just good sense, and a relatively "cheap" form of insurance... Especially when one considers that most hostile encounters, whether home invasion or break-ins, or ambush, take place 70% if the time in low light/night level situations. The red dot can save your life...

    I have an Aimpoint Micro T-1 atop my Mossberg 590A1 SPX, and it instantly was in position the moment I put it on... It's a comfort to know that where the picture is, ghost ring sights or red dot, it's upon me to do the work- with the best possible opportunities...

    Co-locating one's BUIS with red dot, is a no brainer...

    Again, John, thanks for reinforcing what to others, is not obvious...

    God Bless You and Yours...

    Maranatha,

    oldpaladin
    "Confess with your mouth, that 'Jesus is Lord,' believing in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead, and you will be saved, for with the heart, man believes and is justified, and with his profession of faith, he is saved." Romans 10:9-10.

  12. #56
    Member Array jsmalls73's Avatar
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    Good post and thanks. I'm bout to buy my first red dot, for my first AR! This helped alot


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