Sticks' DMR AR saga

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Sticks' DMR AR saga

    Well, I finally got the OK from the CFO [Wife] to start buying the components for my DMR assembly. This will only be shooting my Mk262 cooking. This is not a battle rifle assembly, this is a long range touchy feely tool, with a goal of consistent 6" grouping at 600y - now I have to take a DMR class or two.

    I have already been window shopping for a few weeks to fill the following list;

    Upper:
    Centurion SS 18" DMR, Vltor MUR-A1, Lowprofile gas block, Auto BCG, A2 flash hider.
    Rail - I want a 15" and I have narrowed it down to either Samson or Troy. I may run into fitting issues with the Vltor receiver since they are a bit bulkier than your standard upper. MI's Gen 2 SS was on the list until I found that you have to use their barrel nut, and I don't want to risk tweaking Centurions alignment.
    No BUIS
    Kalinka Optics 8x42 SVD reticule. I would love to find a .25" picatinny riser.
    BCM Mod 4 charging handle

    Lower:
    PSA Stripped lower
    PSA LPK
    Geissele SSA-E
    Magpul PRS
    Magpul MIAD

    Fluff:
    VTAC padded sling
    Bipdo - Either an Atlas or Harris. Still deciding if the $279 price tag on the Atlas is worth it.
    Several cans of Krylon - this one is going to get some color before assembly.

    A relatively short list, yet still going to come in near $2k (last time I set a target dollar, I shot $800 past it). Once again, my upper alone is going to cost more than most peoples completes.

    The Whys -

    I have only one other AR in my experience belt, and that saga can be found here Post #74 as the final list.

    Shooting is my only hobby, and I don't get to do it much. In rifle, I really enjoy doing the long range stuff. Anybody can hit a target under 100y. I want to be able to hit the 10 on demand out to 600. Skill and equipment. I have some, and need more of both. I love my PSL, I hate cleaning up after the corrosive ammo, and finding 7.62x54 brass for reloading is less than easy or cheap. She may go on the "For Sale" block to help fund this project (PM me if interested). I also lack the desire to tool up for .308 reloading. That brass is rather hard to come by as well, otherwise I would go with an AR10 or bolt platform. I am a firm believer that accuracy makes up for inertia and mass. I just have the bigger challenge of compensating for wind.

    To date I have taken 2 Advanced Carbine courses, and have put a total of maybe 4k rounds (all my reloads) down range. My last trip netted me a 1.4 MOA in less than stellar conditions (prone off the mag, support hand on AFG, rough terrain through a Forrest - the only way I could get 100y on my cabin property) shooting my M193 home brew. The Centurion upper assembly has been solid, accurate when I do my part and reliable. I see no reason to change Upper brands at this point. I need to find out who makes the Centurion BCG. My current BCG is a PSA, and I have a BCM spare. I would think that Centurions will be a HP/MPI tested auto of top notch quality.

    The Centurion C4 rail is awesome, but I have no need for a quad rail on a DMR, ergo the 15" tube. More for aesthetics than function since I prefer my bipod mounted closer to the receiver, and do 95% of my prone AR shooting off the mag. The Bipod just makes shooting uphill so much easier on my back and neck.

    The PSA lower, a company new to the game and with CS issues in the past, has thus far proven to be a solid performer with the typical occasional problem child that makes it out the door. Not much love for them in the operator world, but mine has been subjected to abuse and has not given me one single problem. All lowers are not created equal, but I have yet to hear of any differences between them and the top dollar lowers. Their LPK and FCG is still solid, and from day 1 the FCG is smooth with no discernible stages or creep. Since this is a DMR, I want a short, light trigger, so I am going with the SSA-E.

    The stock was a toss up between another Vltor A5 and the PRS. The A5 has made for a very soft shooting rifle on my 16", combined with the Vltor upper and PSA Auto BCG is extremely smooth. The PRS uses the same style rifle spring and buffer so this should be near equal to the A5.

    The MIAD grip I really like. The standard A2 grip is too small, and the other brands of grips that I have handled just did not feel good. I was pondering the Ergo grip with palm shelf, but I think I am going to run into problems given my big hands being wedged between the lower and shelf. That in it is a bit too "Tacticool" for my liking.

    I am a big fan of the SVD reticule. It makes for an easy range estimate, not too cluttered, and quick hold over adjustments if needed (READ - good points of reference over a standard mil-dot). The only problem is that one can not easily see a .24" hole at 600y with even a 24x scope, let alone an 8x, and I rarely, well, never have a spotter with me.

    If anyone here has any experience with the above listed components they would like to share, or any recommendations for something different, please chime in.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Centurion's 18" Mk12 barrel is about as good as it gets, I'm sure you'll enjoy this rifle. Yes, the Atlas is worth the money. I don't have a ton of experience with it, but I've used it and I do have a lot of experience with Harris. Both are great, but the Atlas is on another level.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    I wasn't a DM, however, I got a fair amount of trigger time with the Mark 12, which is the true 5.56 DMR. Some day I want to build my own, although the M-16A1 lower would probably need to be subsituted with something more accessible as a civvie.

    I would add a BUIS system, the Mark 12 has on. I'm 99% sure they are Knights Armament, but the BUIS on the issued rifle is very small and lightweight, but it words. The rear is just a post with a peep on the end, and the front is much less bulky than normal as well.

    I also wonder about your scope choice. The DMR as issued had a 2.5-10x Leupold scope. The scope also has an illuminated dot capability, so that if the user needs to get close in, you can use the dot at 2.5 with the bindon aiming concept, like a normal red dot. But then you have up to 10 power for longer range shooting. I think if you want this to be a true DMR fighting rifle, both capabilities are needed. IF you actually just want a super accurate AR, that is slightly different than the purposes of a DMR IMHO.

    The PRS stock, while a good precision stock, is quite heavy, and does generally affect the balance a bit on a rifle, just something to consider.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    The BUIS on the Mk12 are the KAC standard flip ups like I use. The rail is the KAC RAS 12" and the optic, depending on which branch, could also be the Nightforce 2.5-10. Also has a KAC gas block and Ops Inc 12th suppressor and mount with collar.

    One of my favorite precision rifle. centruion Arms was the first to offer the same exact barrel as the issued rifle, which is a Douglass barrel turned down by Compass Lake. High Caliber Sales has the same barrel now as well.

    This barrel was designed to be used with mk262, so it's a perfect barrel for the build with your ammo choice.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; September 29th, 2012 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Ops Inc 12th, not 16th
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    The BUIS on the Mk12 are the KAC standard flip ups like I use. The rail is the KAC RAS 12" and the optic, depending on which branch, could also be the Nightforce 2.5-10. Also has a KAC gas block and Ops Inc 16th suppressor and mount with collar.

    One of my favorite precision rifle. centruion Arms was the first to offer the same exact barrel as the issued rifle, which is a Douglass barrel turned down by Compass Lake. High Caliber Sales has the same barrel now as well.

    This barrel was designed to be used with mk262, so it's a perfect barrel for the build with your ammo choice.
    The Marine Corp's budget isn't as big as the Navy's (they don't like to share I guess). So ours had Leupolds.

    The Navy was actually the original developer of the Mark 12's, and the Mark 11's too.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    The Marine Corp's budget isn't as big as the Navy's (they don't like to share I guess). So ours had Leupolds.

    The Navy was actually the original developer of the Mark 12's, and the Mark 11's too.
    Ha. That Leupold is great. The Mark 4 line is good stuff and at the right price. Crane has certainly has come up with some very useful weapon systems. I've heard the Mk12 is no longer being purchased and they'll eventually be phased out. Not sure when or by what, just something I skimmed over a while back. Either way, that barrel is a great choice for any precision 5.56. If I didn't need to replace my 10.5" and some other gear, that would likely be one of the next builds I'd do.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Ha. That Leupold is great. The Mark 4 line is good stuff and at the right price. Crane has certainly has come up with some very useful weapon systems. I've heard the Mk12 is no longer being purchased and they'll eventually be phased out. Not sure when or by what, just something I skimmed over a while back. Either way, that barrel is a great choice for any precision 5.56. If I didn't need to replace my 10.5" and some other gear, that would likely be one of the next builds I'd do.
    Maybe they are just changing somethings around, and no longer having the Mark 12 in it's current configuration. I know in the Marines a squad DM is seen as a big asset, and they like having the commonality between other platforms.

    I think however, the issue could be the lowers. True Mark 12's are built on a M-16A1 lower, which includes full auto (as opposed to burst), and the A1 buttstock isn't as user friendly as a lot of the more modern ones, it's too short. I can see them keeping the same basic upper, and putting it on an A4 lower or something else, and using that to remedy those two issues.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    I like AR 15's

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    I wasn't a DM, however, I got a fair amount of trigger time with the Mark 12, which is the true 5.56 DMR. Some day I want to build my own, although the M-16A1 lower would probably need to be subsituted with something more accessible as a civvie.

    I would add a BUIS system, the Mark 12 has on. I'm 99% sure they are Knights Armament, but the BUIS on the issued rifle is very small and lightweight, but it words. The rear is just a post with a peep on the end, and the front is much less bulky than normal as well.

    I also wonder about your scope choice. The DMR as issued had a 2.5-10x Leupold scope. The scope also has an illuminated dot capability, so that if the user needs to get close in, you can use the dot at 2.5 with the bindon aiming concept, like a normal red dot. But then you have up to 10 power for longer range shooting. I think if you want this to be a true DMR fighting rifle, both capabilities are needed. IF you actually just want a super accurate AR, that is slightly different than the purposes of a DMR IMHO.

    The PRS stock, while a good precision stock, is quite heavy, and does generally affect the balance a bit on a rifle, just something to consider.
    Scope - Someday, I may change my feelings towards the mil.dot reticule (I did towards the AR after all) but my time behind the SVD reticule has made me appreciate the simplicity. Maybe after I take a precision rifle course I'll have a better appreciation for it [mil.dot].

    I am opting for the PRS stock because I want something to give me a better cheek weld. I am fine with my E-mod when upright, but prone I start having issues.

    My current scope option has the mount built in (ergo the picatinny riser for a QR mount), and I suck with Irons. if my scope went Tango Uniform, I'd be better off point shooting.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ... The Mark 4 line is good stuff and at the right price....
    $1500.00 is the right price? I can blow my budget a little, but not double it.

    ...Either way, that barrel is a great choice for any precision 5.56. If I didn't need to replace my 10.5" and some other gear, that would likely be one of the next builds I'd do.
    You've been saying that for a year now. Get on with it.

    I'll have to contact Monty about the Mk 12 (forgot about those). I was looking more at his standard DMR uppers. I may need to suck it up and actually just buy the barrel, and MUR and put this together myself. It's just darn hard to build an upper cheaper than buying one outright.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    My current scope option has the mount built in (ergo the picatinny riser for a QR mount), and I suck with Irons. if my scope went Tango Uniform, I'd be better off point shooting.
    I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

    Before you dump the cash into this rifle, I would really suggest spending time and money in becoming proficient with irons.

    10/10 into a man sized target at 500 yards from the prone is attainable by a large number of Marine recruits during boot camp, many of whom have never touched a rifle before in their lives.

    Becoming proficient with irons will enhance the rest of your rifle shooting, it really forces you to build the fundamentals of sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, breath control, hold control and follow through. As well as forcing you to build good solid shooting positions, even if they are improvised. Scopes and sights are great, but irons are a skill every shooter should have.

    When I get students who come to my basic pistol class, and want to use a laser, I explain to them that it is kind of like learning to drive. Iron sights are like a manual transmission, if you learn how to drive with them, it builds a solid foundation, and better knowledge of what is actually going on. The laser (or scope for a rifle), is like learning to drive on an automatic, the transition to the other style is very hard to adjust to. Most firearms have iron sights (but granted not all of them), so I think learning to use them is a must.

    Point shooting a rifle beyond a hundred yards or so is a bit of a tall order.

    As far as the SVD reticule, there are things I like about it, and things I don't. I have a fair amount of experience with them. They are somewhat easy to use once you get the hang of it. And they actually aren't in meters or yards if I remember correctly, but some obscure Russian measurement. But, they lack the magnification needed for your role IMHO. Also, I have found them to be a bit finicky on eye relief, which can be a problem firing from different positions.

    What kind of mount are you running with the SVD scope?
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    I know everyone has an opinion so I'll chuck mine in here as well. After just going down this road a about a year and a half ago I'll mention two things I really liked.

    I liked my BCM 18 inch DM upper a lot. I could regularly shoot 3 shot groups at about .35 inches at 100 yards with 69 grain SMKs. My best groups were about half that. Almost one hole. It was super accurate but since I live in the East I just couldn't stretch it's legs enough for me to keep it around. I would be worth the money even at twice what I paid for it.

    The second thing I liked was the scope I ran on it. I have a Mil Mil Weaver Grand Slam 3.5X10 (I think) that worked great and was not very pricey. It was not a Nightforce (not that I'd know one) but it was also well worth the money. IIRC I got it on sale from midway for about $300.

    Weaver Tactical Grand Slam Rifle Scope 3-10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

    Take a look at both of these. It might be something you'd like....or maybe not. I figured i'd just toss these out there.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post

    You've been saying that for a year now. Get on with it.
    I know, I know! If it wasn't for all the stolen gear, it would be my next. Or the 12.5". I don't know!

    Anyway, stick to a mil dot or even abhors reticle. You'll learn to appreciate it after a precision rifle class. Which class are you looking at taking?

    You can pick up a Nightforce 2.5-10 for a good price, especially lightly used. Same goes for the Leupold.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

    Before you dump the cash into this rifle, I would really suggest spending time and money in becoming proficient with irons.

    10/10 into a man sized target at 500 yards from the prone is attainable by a large number of Marine recruits during boot camp, many of whom have never touched a rifle before in their lives.

    Becoming proficient with irons will enhance the rest of your rifle shooting, it really forces you to build the fundamentals of sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, breath control, hold control and follow through. As well as forcing you to build good solid shooting positions, even if they are improvised. Scopes and sights are great, but irons are a skill every shooter should have.

    When I get students who come to my basic pistol class, and want to use a laser, I explain to them that it is kind of like learning to drive. Iron sights are like a manual transmission, if you learn how to drive with them, it builds a solid foundation, and better knowledge of what is actually going on. The laser (or scope for a rifle), is like learning to drive on an automatic, the transition to the other style is very hard to adjust to. Most firearms have iron sights (but granted not all of them), so I think learning to use them is a must.

    Point shooting a rifle beyond a hundred yards or so is a bit of a tall order.

    As far as the SVD reticule, there are things I like about it, and things I don't. I have a fair amount of experience with them. They are somewhat easy to use once you get the hang of it. And they actually aren't in meters or yards if I remember correctly, but some obscure Russian measurement. But, they lack the magnification needed for your role IMHO. Also, I have found them to be a bit finicky on eye relief, which can be a problem firing from different positions.

    What kind of mount are you running with the SVD scope?
    Don't worry about being "Nice as possible" I've spent enough time in M4C to develop the thick skin

    It's not for lack of trying. My vision is horrid. Either notched rear or my current Troy Diamond rear sight is so blurred that I can not distinguish where center is. I've has somewhat success with micro peeps, and wish I someone made a power peep (magnified rear sight). Simply hitting a 36"x24" target w/irons at 500 is not not up to my standards. I can do that by simply looking down the top line/profile of the rifle and holdover by instinct (25 years of Archery, you learn a few things). To give you an example, a straight edge held 4" from my eye, has 1" of fur (so to speak) at 16". Maybe this years Optometrist visit will net me some astigmatism correction contacts, but I doubt that will solve the problems with restricted close in focus (uncorrected clear vision stops at 8").

    As for the scope - This is my current choice. I currently have the 6x for my 16", and the 8x on my PSL. Holds zero on both rifles (remove and install), and the 6x on my 16" is almost overkill with the graduation chevrons. At 600y (the one time I have been able to shoot that far) was 1 click on the elevation and second chevron down. I could probably leave at the 100y zero and just use the graduations (like the ACOGs) for ranges out to 600. Ironically the chevrons were designed for 1000+m (1100, 1200, etc..). The adjustable zoom weaver mount that they have is only a 6x. I don't know that they have the 3-9x available in a weaver mount.

    The old Russian distance/length measurements were Arshin [ 1 arshin = 28" or 71.1 cm ] and those are the markings on the Mosin Nagant sights. Yes, I have a conversion chart for when I take my .54r rifles out to play. They got on board with the metric system after WWII.

    Looks like I will have to pony up another $170 or so to make it a QR (finally found something that will work).

    Another option is to get a Hubble Telescope [15x+] and an offset RDS...Just kidding.


    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...The second thing I liked was the scope I ran on it. I have a Mil Mil Weaver Grand Slam 3.5X10 (I think) that worked great and was not very pricey. It was not a Nightforce (not that I'd know one) but it was also well worth the money. IIRC I got it on sale from midway for about $300.

    Weaver Tactical Grand Slam Rifle Scope 3-10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

    Take a look at both of these. It might be something you'd like....or maybe not. I figured i'd just toss these out there.
    Thanks Atctimmy. I'll keep that in mind. If only it was illuminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I know, I know! If it wasn't for all the stolen gear, it would be my next. Or the 12.5". I don't know!

    Anyway, stick to a mil dot or even abhors reticle. You'll learn to appreciate it after a precision rifle class. Which class are you looking at taking?

    You can pick up a Nightforce 2.5-10 for a good price, especially lightly used. Same goes for the Leupold.
    Been saying a 12.5 for the same year. I win the Lotto, one of each may show up on your doorstep.

    What the heck is a "Abhors Reticule"?

    Range estimation for me has always been an issue (male trait?). Being a mechanic, my eyes are calibrated to .060" or mm increments. Not yards/meters. Counting dots on a given base size and doing the math in my head takes a bit more time and is prone to errors. That is why I like the SVD reticule. Given object at 1.2m (3.9') or .2m (6.5") tall and line up in the graph - there you go.

    What few Leo or NF scopes that I have found are still $1200 plus. Outside my budget, and not justifiable for a non-operator. I am above hobby shooter (even though I call it a hobby) because I have standards and goals. I'd go competitive if my work did not require my presence 2600+ hours a year (60+ hours a week, maybe 8 weeks of layoff during the winter - unemployment is 1/4 my normal salary and is considered our "Paid Vacation" by the company).

    Not sure what precision class yet. My latest pondering was John McPhee (why are all the rifle instructors last name Mc-something?) until I realized it was a fall 2013. I need to find the one I saw in AZ - I can tie it in with a visit to my parents. Might have been Vickers. It's been a few hits to the head since I looked at it.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Horus! Thanks iPad...

    I know, I'll probably be saying it for another year too! Right now I just need to replace my work upper, the 10.5".
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Not sure what precision class yet. My latest pondering was John McPhee (why are all the rifle instructors last name Mc-something?) until I realized it was a fall 2013. I need to find the one I saw in AZ - I can tie it in with a visit to my parents. Might have been Vickers. It's been a few hits to the head since I looked at it.
    If you're checking out classes in AZ, be sure to post about it. I'm always on the lookout for training opportunities.

    BTW, have you checked out Leupold's scopes with their 'Fire Dot' reticle?



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