Is a shotgun "useless"? - Page 11

Is a shotgun "useless"?

This is a discussion on Is a shotgun "useless"? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Tayopo, that very exterior/interior ballistics you mention is why the 9.3x62 is still allowed for dangerous game, and at least 4 of the " big ...

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  1. #151
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Tayopo, that very exterior/interior ballistics you mention is why the 9.3x62 is still allowed for dangerous game, and at least 4 of the " big five" are still downed with it. Despite it's moderate velocities of 24-2600 fps, that big 35 caliber 270 weight bullet hits " just right".

    Likewise, the 7x57 Mauser is still used on the largest plains game in the " bushveld".
    Sometimes speed ruins the recipe.
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  2. #152
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Might as well give it up Gman, he'll never admit he could be wrong, if he really wanted to learn, a google search of "many Professional African big game hunters DO use shotguns loaded with buckshot on wounded cats." comes back with 19,000 hits.
    Nice, your search is a perfect example of throw enuf "stuff" against the wall and something will stick. Too bad you didn't actually look at any of the links like I bothered to do. 19k hits doesn't mean anything when you've got 7 major tag words in your search. It brings up everything including birding and Justin Bieber. Let's take a look at the first two pages:

    First link is this thread


    2nd link is about using slugs

    Chuck Hawks Shotguns for Protection in the Field There have been a number of cases where buckshot failed to make it through the tough skin and muscles that protect the chest wall of a lion, tiger, or even a leopard. A lion is maybe half the weight of your average grizzly bear and about 1/4 the weight of a brown or polar bear. Leopards are about the weight of a human being, so think carefully before stoking your shotgun with buckshot.

    An experenced big game hunter bounced 2 loads of 00 buck off the skull of a 100# leapord. While I believe it would be a fine killing round I have my doubts it would be a stopping round.

    Following a wounded Lion I carry my .416 Rem Mag. Following a wounded Leopard I carry my .416 if I don’t have my shotgun. If I have my Benelli M3 Super I carry that, but will always have at least one slug as my first round in case I get a shot at over about 12 feet

    Furthermore, lions are evidently susceptible to hydrostatic shock when impact velocities are above 3,000 ft/s (910 m/s). Lion require at a minimum a .300 Winchester Magnum.[10] However, certain jurisdictions require a minimum a .375 H&H Magnum or a 9.3x62mm Mauser as a minimum caliber. A few professional hunters are known to carry 12-gauge semiautomatic shotguns loaded with buckshot as a back-up weapon when hunting lion [Hey, here's one for you - but it does say a few]

    The others are about leopards which are about 200 lbs lighter than a lion and opinions on forums.



    So, using your search, I'm still under the impression that 00 buck is about the bottom of the list for lions. If it's such a great idea, why can't clients use it to initiate the kill. You can always find a few people doing something that ain't the best idea - doesn't mean you should cite it as an example of what to do. Also have to ask the question of why are they doing it - maybe b/c they don't have ready access to what they'd prefer.

    I am always willing to learn, but am unwilling to take someone's word for something when they have previously spewed out a whole bunch of bull. Why is my asking people to support their position considered an unwillingness to learn? I stated my case with actual facts, why shouldn't others do the same? You're attempt to support your position, due to your failure to actually read the results, did more to support mine. Still waiting for the other enumerated issues to be addressed. Anyone, anyone ...

  3. #153
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Following a wounded Lion I carry my .416 Rem Mag. Following a wounded Leopard I carry my .416

    'if I donít have my shotgun'.

    If I have my Benelli M3 Super I carry that, but will always have at least one slug as my first round in case I get a shot at over about 12 feet

    Gracias for your quote ned.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  4. #154
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Ned sit down a drink some coffee with me and relax. K, so I am a coffee hound, blame the military for this. We always had excellent coffee in the ready room, thanks to our coffee making genius , corporal. Winski..

    The internet is an ambiguous source of information, you can find just about anything that you need. Here is an excellent example of answers for most of the questions answers that have surfaced in here regarding shotgun efficiency.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and sub-machine guns and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy.
    The shotgun is not a magic weapon that will slay all foes. Like all other guns, it must be aimed at a specific target. Buckshot loads will not "sweep" a room. "Close" still only counts in horseshoes. Aim your shotgun from the shoulder (like a rifle) if you intend to hit an aggressor.

    I invoke the Ascended Master, Massad Ayoob: "It is perhaps the most efficient close-range killing machine in the world's arsenal of small arms." For a discussion of the shotgun's strengths and weaknesses I refer all interested parties to Ayoob's excellent and comprehensive book 'The Truth About Self-Protection' (truly the best $8.95 investment you'll ever make), which discusses every element of self-defense from locks, chemical sprays and alarms to defensive driving, firearms and defending yourself against dogs. A more in-depth treatment of the issue may be found in Ayoob's book-length volume on shotgun technique, 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'.

    A Note On Terminology
    Shotgun ammunition falls into three general categories:
    BUCKSHOT - shell loaded with large-diameter lead balls (.24" and up) used for big game hunting and self-defense. The number of pellets in 12 gauge buck-shot varies from eight .36" balls in "000 buck" to 27 .24" pellets in "#4 buck". Buckshot ratings are archaic and hard to understand (as are shotgun specifications and ammunition in general), but thankfully there isn't much you need to learn. Simply write down the recommended loads, walk into your local gunshop and announce your desired ammunition. Note that "00" is pronounced "double ought" and "000" is pronounced "triple ought." Don't say "zero zero" or "oh-oh-oh buckshot" in front of gunshop employees. Then practice with both your selected defense load and low-cost birdshot to fully familiarize yourself with the operation of your gun and its terminal performance (e.g. patterns at various distances, the startling effects of buckshot on melons).

    12 Gauge
    If you simply want to know the best defense load, go out and buy: 12 gauge, 2-3/4" shell, 00 buckshot. You shall live happily ever after, as this is the most effective man-stopping firearm cartridge yet devised by man. I recommend the Federal Classic (F127-00), Winchester Super-X (X12RB5) or Remington Buckshot (SP12BK-5PK00) as the best double-ought buckshot defense rounds. One of these rounds is virtually equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round hitting.

    Effective shotgun technique, of course, requires that one hits with each shot. Don't think that you can merely point the shotgun in the general direction of your attacker and let fly. Read Ayoob's book Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun for the low-down on good shotgun skills and then practice, practice, practice.
    Many experienced shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot to 00. I really cannot argue, but Lt. Marshall is on record as stating that 00 is superior, both in penetration and stopping power. Good enough for me, but if you have a #4 or #1 buckshot jones, go ahead (Ayoob favors #1). Stay away from 2-3/4" Magnum or 3" Magnum loads, however. The brutal kick of these rounds makes them a bad choice and you gain nothing in stopping power over the 2-3/4" standard loads. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shells have quite enough kick as it is.

    A note on shotgun spread: firing your shotgun does not create a diabolical cone of doom destroying all in its path. If you have a typical defense or riot gun with an 18"-20" open-choked (Cylinder bore) barrel, the pellets will spread out about 1" for every yard of range. This means that the spread of pellets fired across a large room (18') will be 6" or so, a circle the size of a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will be the size of a large pizza (16"). test-fire your shotgun at various ranges, using big white butcher paper targets to get an idea of the pattern you can expect. It is a common misconception that blasting at foes ten feet away will take out two or three of them. The spread at that range is just three inches, so you can see that I meant it when I said that the shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired, just like handguns and rifles. The shotgun is simply more likely to hit, and stop, the attacker.

    Slugs are potent manstoppers, but have limited application for self-defense. Slugs have ferocious recoil and often over-penetrate. There are special situations where slugs might be preferred over buckshot (e.g. road-blocks, barricaded foes), but if you are interested in such esoterica I again direct you to Ayoob's masterful tome Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun. This guide is for general civilian readers; policemen, soldiers and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.

    Don't be a knucklehead. Stay away from weirdo rounds like rubber buckshot or neoprene slugs. These are riot-control rounds designed for massed police use against violent mobs. Don't rely on such marginalia to save your life.

    Two things t
    o keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at very close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never shoot to wound. I once again direct you to read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme and learn the truth.

    The second thing is that birdshot can make a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is less likely to penetrate multiple interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house. However, if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead).

    The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal Classic Lead Hi-Brass #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester Super-X #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells,

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  5. #155
    Member Array Jesters Dead's Avatar
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    Shotguns are worthless. Somebody's gotta step up, so I guess I'll take them off your hands.
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  6. #156
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    Why is it that you refuse to support or recant your previous assertions/misinformation? Now you're switching from 00 buck to slugs. There's a whole lot of people around here that would take exception to your "nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" ". I suggest you go back to post #25 to see what the people who get paid to stop criminals are using now. I've read Ayoob's books, however, they are 30 yrs old now. While a lot of great info still rings true, other things change. There's no doubt that a 12 ga slug is more powerful than .223, but that doesn't mean it's always and forever the most appropriate tool for all jobs. One poster is accusing me of refusing to learn anything, but from everything you've posted, seems to me you are spinning your wheels in facts and fables from long ago and are refusing to stay up to date with current technology, tactics and ideas.

    Here's some more up-to-date info from the man himself (Ayoob) over on GlockTalk on
    7/3/2012:
    Bottom line: if I KNEW I was going to be in a gunfight, everything I've learned tells me I'd rather have an autoloading rifle, and in some circumstances, a shotgun. However, tactical considerations leave us carrying pistols 'cause folks look at us funny when we take the AR15 into WalMart.

    and on 1/15/2012:
    .223/5.56mm ballistics are close to ideal for home defense rifles. AR15 platform or Ruger Mini-14 would be at the top of my own list.

    12/29/11 on the African animals that got loose in Ohio
    One lion wounded and deterred by round of 00 buck from 12 gauge Mossberg, finished off with rifle

    Hope everyone enjoys their coffee.

  7. #157
    Member Array RAC55's Avatar
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    My biggest concern with using a .223 or a 7.62x39 rounds in a home defense situation particularly if you live in an urban or suburban neighborhoods is these rounds are more than capable of going through a lot of sheetrock and particle board walls penetrating into neighbors homes and putting them at risk. I know you are defending your home but to have to consider the collateral damage you could be doing. The shotgun using the proper loads in that scenario will do it's job within the home without blasting through multiple walls into neighboring homes, unless of course slugs or buckshot is used. We tried 2 3/4" turkey loads with copper plated shot in a model 500 Mossberg pump with the 18" tactical barrel at a large target board for pattern at about 20 feet. The pattern was the size of a basketball. We switched over to a 24" rifled slug barrel firing the turkey loads. The spread was much larger due to the wad spinning the shot out as it left the barrel. I would be quite effective in a hall clearing exercise. A rifle has to be aimed, the shotgun you point....I'll go with the shotgun loaded with turkey loads or a good #4 birdshot for house clearing hands down....If rural and no neighbors around, then I would go buckshot or the rifle.

  8. #158
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    5.56 is LESS capable of penetrating interior/exterior walls that typical handgun bullets and buckshot/slugs. There's a ton of bad info on rifles for home defense. Using OTM like 75gr TAP or even most FMJ, the bullet will fragment and pose less risk of death after penetrating walls than the other options. The only exception to this are JSP and barrier blind loads like Gold Dot, TSX, etc., which still make an excellent home defense choice.

    A very simple Google search will show that 5.56 is less deadly after penetrating interior walls, yet is still capable of defeating soft body armor.

    Here's the problem.... People repeat what they hear and don't dissect that information or actually test it themselves. they parrot information, usually leaving out many important details. 5.56 penetrating more walls than handgun ammunition or buckshot is often said. What's left out is that only very specific barrier blind ammunition will do this. Most 5.56 ammunition will not. TAP is an extremely effective man stopper with extremely violent fragmentation and deep penetration. It'll defeat a vest but will pose considerably less risk after penetrating walls due to the violent fragmentation.

    The whole 5.56 ripping through multiple homes is about as outdated and disproven as thinking shot used for dove is ideal for home defensedont get me wrong, 5.56 is still very dangerous after penetrating walls, just not AS deadly as buckshot or modern handgun ammunition.

    Still, I cannot understand how people can justify some of this stuff. I don't understand how people will choose to load their weapon of choice with suboptimal ammunition, knowing the threats that we may face.

    How many here telling others what is right when it comes to defensive weapons and ammunition have actually been put to the test? Understand it's not television. We'll likely be caught completely off guard, even when living prepared, we're likely not going to be focused and clear headed, the adrenaline dump alone will do all sorts of crazy stuff to your body and mind and I can gauruntee, on my life, that we will almost certainly not have a clean shot, center mass, like we all train for at the flat range.

    So, why would we choose ammunition that would require us to get a clean, center mass shot to be truly effective. Sure, some burglar not expecting confrontation can see a handgun and dive out a window. I had some weasel come after me with a crowbar when I confronted him outside removing the screen from my window, clearly intent on laying down some pain, then he did a 180, smash through my wife's flowers (should have shot him for that alone) and run faster that Usain Bolt. His partner too, except he was in the car.

    But, there's that one in twenty. How do we knows the odds are in our favor. What happens when that tweaker rallies up a couple other tweaker friends and they go on a home invasion spree, becoming more brazen with each?

    What happens when we confront one of the three that entered out home, draw our handgun or shoulder our rifle or shotgun, and he just smiles and does the same? Now what? Would you rather beat him to pulling the trigger with birdshot or buckshot? If anyone answers birdshot, then they're must also think it's a good idea to fire one bullet then stop, assess, then fire another instead of just shooting him to the ground in the first place.

    Shoot them with the most effective ammo available, and shoot them as many times as possible. What the hell do you think is going to happen if he or one of his buddies doesn't drop immediately from birdshot? He's going to kill you, that's what. Then what happens? You're dead and now your wife and kids are left to fend for themselves.

    Stop and picture this, please. Picture this animal, this disgusting maggot who's been up for 7 days smoking meth, thinking he's invincible, has absolutely nothing to live for and will gladly kill everyone in your home for just a few dollars and a few minutes with your daughter. My Dad was a DA in Los Angeles. This has happened many, many times. I've seen things in his files that I hope nobody here ever has to see, let alone experience.

    Sorry to be so dramatic, but if I only view the possible threat as some 14 year old kid who's only stealing because he needs to eat, I might as well just sell my firearms and leave grocery store gift certificates taped to my front door.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; October 16th, 2012 at 08:56 AM.
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  9. #159
    OD*
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    I didnít read just the first pages, Iíve actually read books by Peter Hathaway Capstick, Robert Ruark , John "Pondoro" Taylor, etc.

    Believe it or don't.


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    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  10. #160
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Every PH I have ever used carried a shotty when we were hunting near lion areas, but hell, what do I know?

    The point of the post is this; are shotguns useless?

    If that question hasn't been answered by now, it probably never will be.
    But even though load choices for it may be debated, I think it's clear all here think it is here to stay for good.
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  11. #161
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Every PH I have ever used carried a shotty when we were hunting near lion areas, but hell, what do I know?

    The point of the post is this; are shotguns useless?

    If that question hasn't been answered by now, it probably never will be.
    But even though load choices for it may be debated, I think it's clear all here think it is here to stay for good.
    My brother in law has been there 4 times, guess what they always had in the arsenal just in case one got into the "long grass"?
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  12. #162
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    I would think the rifle would be more dangerous and useless. That is of course you are talking self defense. Fact is if you pull the trigger and kill the most worthless piece of criminal scum this world have ever seen you will still have to answer why. A riffle is good for distance and the question would be why did you kill him if he was so far away. For home defense I think the shot gun is the best weapon.
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  13. #163
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    My brother in law has been there 4 times, guess what they always had in the arsenal just in case one got into the "long grass"?
    I handled one that had express sights on it, but was a shotty. Common practice to load one barrel with a slug and one with shot.
    Also a common arm is the drilling, as produced by Kreigoff. Merkel, and Hoffman are big, big name brands of fine guns uncommon over here.

    Another thing about Lions; they are hard as hell to see, and when they are close enough to see, they can get to you in one pounce. I have seen them jump a school bus length.
    In the grass, they blend in very very well.

    In the states, the scattergun is probably more credit worthy of helping to settle the west than the rifles or revolvers.
    It is definitely an asset to have around.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingit View Post
    I would think the rifle would be more dangerous and useless. That is of course you are talking self defense. Fact is if you pull the trigger and kill the most worthless piece of criminal scum this world have ever seen you will still have to answer why. A riffle is good for distance and the question would be why did you kill him if he was so far away. For home defense I think the shot gun is the best weapon.
    What?? I'll be sure to let the bad guy know he's too close and ask him to step back a good 50 yards if the situation should arise.

    A semi auto rifle and a shotgun are both extremely efficient defensive tools at close range. By close range, I mean in the same room.

    It seems we are no longer just bordering.......
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #165
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Another thing about Lions; they are hard as hell to see, and when they are close enough to see, they can get to you in one pounce. I have seen them jump a school bus length. In the grass, they blend in very very well.
    Lion Attacks Safari Hunter - YouTube
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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