Is a shotgun "useless"?

This is a discussion on Is a shotgun "useless"? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Jon, I think a shoot would be great! I just came back from a hog hunt down there around Austin, San Antonio area, but was ...

Page 13 of 18 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 256
Like Tree190Likes

Thread: Is a shotgun "useless"?

  1. #181
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,585
    Jon, I think a shoot would be great! I just came back from a hog hunt down there around Austin, San Antonio area, but was pushed for time.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #182
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alamos, Son, Mexico
    Posts
    190
    Glockman mi compadre, I wonder if most in here know just how fast a lion really is?? It is estimated that from a crouching start it can clear a 100 meter distance in approx 2.3 - 3 secods. not much precise aiming time.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. You know where the coffee is, so get your own, or call Lupita.

  4. #183
    Member Array ponchsox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    472
    FWIW, Chris Costa prefers a handgun over shotgun in a HD situation:

    Full Interview with Chris Costa | Rem870.com

  5. #184
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    578
    Just had this discussion with a couple friends/acquaintances last night (a regular guy, a Secret Service agent, and a Marshals recruiter). They were in the AR camp as well, solidified by the question...

    -what do you lose when switching from a SG to semi automatic (M4/AR) rifle? All we could come up with is cost. To answer the question, you lose nothing.
    -inversely, what do you lose when switching from a semiautomatic (M4/AR) rifle to a SG? That list was long.

    A newer episode of Tactical Impact where Larry and Company discuss the evolution of the patrol officer's weapons. Yes, patrol uses shotguns...started to in 1960s. But recently, thanks to military guidance and training, PDs have moved towards utilizing assault rifles as a replacement.

    This...is a CLUE.

    Tactical Impact - Arming the Patrol Officer - YouTube

    IMO the answer to the OP can be summed up as: No the SG is not useless, and may have its place in niche situations. Is it the most versatile? Is it the most user friendly? Is it the 'best' choice? Nope. But it's better than nothing.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  6. #185
    VIP Member
    Array atctimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NSA Headquarters
    Posts
    6,358
    Something to watch:




  7. #186
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    KCMO
    Posts
    3,420
    Cool. Let's take a look at those.
    1) At first sighting and initial charge, both lions are out of range of a shotgun loaded with buckshot.
    2) Up close, there is no spread of buckshot so there is no advantage due to lack of time for "precise aiming". If you were to miss with a rifle, you would have missed with a shotgun - even if a pellet or two did catch the animal, you're now counting on a 32 acp to take down a 500 lbs predator with marginal hits (otherwise you would have hit even with a rifle). Not to mention buckshot doesn't behave exactly like a slug, no matter how close.
    3) While a SG loaded with slugs may have up 3000 ft-lbs of energy, a 458 Win Mag, with bullets the same weight as 12 slugs, has 5300 ft-lbs, or a 375 H&H with expanding bullet and 4400 ft-lbs of energy, or a 416 Rigby with 5400 ft-lbs + expanding bullet.
    4) While each event happened extremely fast, there is only an instant of time where buckshot might be argued to have even a slight advantage. For vast majority of either encounter, without contest, a rifle would be a better choice.

    So, what am I missing? Which statement is false?

  8. #187
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,585
    While there is a reason for LE to move towards the carbine, I think it's important to think about the different role the LE will use the weapon for.
    Now, as Jon pointed out, there is a question about why a private citizen should view their needs differently than LE, and that's certainly food for thought with merits.

    However, if we consider the enviromental and tactical needs of the home owner, vs the sworn duty of a LEO, the playing field changes from a more dynamic one to a more static use.

    This isn't to say that by following the lead of military and LE that the citizen will not be well served, but it should be closely examined.

    A LEO, for example, could face a shooting situation that dictates the longer effect range of the carbine, and may require more precision fire. In addition to this, the LEO, may or may not be accompanied by other officers which make fire and maneuver, and communications to do this are available.

    The homeowner, on the other hand, will probably have a very limited distance in which to fire, and will probably be defending the most sacred thing he has, the sanctity of his castle, which house his most valuable things; the family.
    In this light, the shotgun, which delivers shot for shot, a more destructive blow, could be the best answer for this particular purpose.

    There is something about a hand held " howitzer" that gives one confidence.

    So, I am not of the school that believes that just because the police or military use it, that it's the best choice for everyone.
    Tayopo and RAC55 like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #188
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,585
    Nedrgr21,

    You are missing something that cannot apparently be explained. But here's some of the reasons.

    Dangerous game rifles are generally heavy and unwieldy in the bush.

    The pointing characteristics of a shotgun make it a natural for point shooting accurately and quickly.

    When not using a double gun, the bolt gun is too slow to get off a second shot.

    A double barrel shotgun has two quick shots.

    Even a 410 has enough stopping power to put down a charging lion. Think 44 magnum power.

    Other than this, I can only suggest you book your own trip and see for yourself, because sometimes you have to see it to understand it.
    Tayopo and OD* like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #189
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alamos, Son, Mexico
    Posts
    190
    hi glock guy: I still want a .600 Jefferies. You couldn't be more correct on the double barreled weapon, In the video, one would not have time to work a bolt action, but for a double barrel rifle or shotgun, it s a very simple move for the second barrel / shot.

    In the old days of the prolonged safaris, a double barreled rifle, or shotgun, was extremely valuable in other ways, in that you effectively had two weapons in one, so if you had one fail, you still had a weapon until you finally returned to civilization where it could be repaired, often measured in weeks.

    Err, ah speaking of the .600 Jefferies glocker, did you know that we are in the vicinity of my birthday ?? Hint hint.


    Don jose de La Mancha

  11. #190
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Posts
    3,169
    My main reason for a rifle is simple; I have one in my hands nearly every single day, keep one in the vehicle at work and dry practice with one daily. The same can be said for the handgun, but we all know both the shotgun and rifle are far better choices.

    Secondary reasons fall to my shooting style and training. I'm in the camp that whether we're defending ourselves with a rifle, shotgun or handgun, multiple hits deliver as fast and accurately as possible are a good thing and this is how I train. Even if I take the Benelli to the range, ever single drill I run involves multiple shots. For me, with a handgun or rifle, as soon as I'm on target and have elided to fire, that first round is quickly followed by a few more, then assess. The rifle obviously fits this role better for me.

    Last year or the year before, we had a string of home invasions. Four men, meth addicts we later found out, were kicking in doors. At least two were armed and all were wearing soft armor. These home invasions were violent, aggressive and fast.

    I have two children, they sleep on opposite ends of the house. I need to get to them in an emergency, so staying put is not an option. God forbid that a couple of guys made it into my home armed and wearing soft armor, I'll need to rapidly defeat the soft armor and devastate whatever is behind it. For me, a 10.5" 5.56 rifle loaded with 75gr TAP or Black Hills 50gr TSX fills that role nicely. Especially once I get to the kids and my daughter won't budge and I have to carry her.

    It's a personal thing. The shotgun is a great choice as long as we avoid birdshot. But for me, it's not.

    I think the only way to know for sure the pros and cons of each, is to spend 15 minutes a day, give or take, for the next couple weeks doing dry work at our homes. Before that, we should attend advanced training and preferrablt some shoot house classes. Until we are taught how to properly use each weapon, we really can't know what is "best", all we really know is what we're comfortable with.

    I DO NOT want a big bore rifle or a bolt action for home defense.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #191
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    While there is a reason for LE to move towards the carbine, I think it's important to think about the different role the LE will use the weapon for.
    Now, as Jon pointed out, there is a question about why a private citizen should view their needs differently than LE, and that's certainly food for thought with merits.

    However, if we consider the enviromental and tactical needs of the home owner, vs the sworn duty of a LEO, the playing field changes from a more dynamic one to a more static use.

    This isn't to say that by following the lead of military and LE that the citizen will not be well served, but it should be closely examined.

    A LEO, for example, could face a shooting situation that dictates the longer effect range of the carbine, and may require more precision fire. In addition to this, the LEO, may or may not be accompanied by other officers which make fire and maneuver, and communications to do this are available.

    The homeowner, on the other hand, will probably have a very limited distance in which to fire, and will probably be defending the most sacred thing he has, the sanctity of his castle, which house his most valuable things; the family.
    In this light, the shotgun, which delivers shot for shot, a more destructive blow, could be the best answer for this particular purpose.

    There is something about a hand held " howitzer" that gives one confidence.

    So, I am not of the school that believes that just because the police or military use it, that it's the best choice for everyone.
    I agree, that's why I said it's a "clue". I didn't say "follow what they do in lockstep".

    The M82 delivers amazing stopping power, but due to numerous other factors it's obviously not a contender here.

    I live on about a half acre (I think). We also have a farm west of town that has much more acreage. In either setting I would choose the SBR, regardless of engagement distance. One of the beauties of the platform...same weapon for 0-100m-300m

    Ease of operation, familiarity of controls, weight, capacity, and short OAL are all very important factors that need be considered IMO.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  13. #192
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,585
    Jon, I totally agree with that. Soft armor is an issue, although I would not want to be on the receiving end of a blast of 00B with one on. But you make your point, and I concur.

    Possibly geography could play a role in the selection also. These meth heads and inbreds most encountered around these parts can't afford to get their damn teeth fixed, let alone afford a vest. Plus the more rural area has it's own style of miscreants, and while they may be motivated, they are generally not very progressive.

    And another thing you mention, shooting style. I think that speaks volumes.
    munch520 likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #193
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Possibly geography could play a role in the selection also. These meth heads and inbreds most encountered around these parts can't afford to get their damn teeth fixed, let alone afford a vest. Plus the more rural area has it's own style of miscreants, and while they may be motivated, they are generally not very progressive.
    That's a great point!

    Things like vests were unheard of (in criminal hands) up here until recent years. Recently, we've had a steady influx of gangs, especially MS13, in the area with increased home invasions and impressive armament; AK47s, vests, even flashbangs used. They've been mainly raiding competitors' stash houses to score good amounts of cash/weapons/contraband but they have followed some innocent families home from places like the grocery store and robbed them.

    Same plays true for where we hunt down in SE OH/N KY...there's some growin land/meth houses down there and they take protecting that stuff seriously! A recent raid netted agents some of the weapons/support gear I mentioned above.
    Sky Pilot likes this.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  15. #194
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Spend a weekend down here with me and we'll see how you feel afterwards. Well, maybe not after that closet stuff....

    Seriously though, if you have a chance to make it down this way, and I have enough time in advance to secure the shoot house, I think I could at least show you some advantages with the rifle that you're likely not considering. Think about it.

    Hell, maybe we should just do a meet of a number of forum members at my buddy's ranch down here.
    Just saw this...I need to get back down there over a long weekend or something. And give you more notice!

    I talked to Ironman8 the other day, he'd be down for sure and I believe you two have a mutual friend at ParadigmSRP?
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  16. #195
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Posts
    3,169
    You know you're always welcome any time. You know John?!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

Page 13 of 18 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

ayoob's masterful tome stressfire ii: advanced combat shotgun

,
is a shotgun useless
,

lmt 10.5

,

lmt 12.5

,
powered by mybb kids next door
,
powered by mybb neoprene vest by remington arms
,

powered by mybb projectiles

,

shotgun useless

,

shotguns are useless

,
stevens 320 door breacher
,

winchester super x #1 buckshot

,
winchester super x #1 buckshot inside
Click on a term to search for related topics.