Is a shotgun "useless"? - Page 17

Is a shotgun "useless"?

This is a discussion on Is a shotgun "useless"? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've got a stick for him.... Funny you should mention that shirt. We were at the ranch hunting for a few days and I had ...

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Thread: Is a shotgun "useless"?

  1. #241
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I've got a stick for him....

    Funny you should mention that shirt. We were at the ranch hunting for a few days and I had only taken two shirts besides to sleep in and they both got filthy due to my idiocy by the second morning. So, had to borrow one from a buddy who is about 4 sizes larger than I am.

    Besides that, I don't care for that camo, it's the next worst thing to wearing a shotgun vest with the plaid on it.
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe


  2. #242
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I think it's cool how people can be on different ends of what they like, and what they place emphasis on and talk about it.
    I do too, as long as there's a mutual understanding that my way is the most correct way.
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  3. #243
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I do too, as long as there's a mutual understanding that my way is the most correct way.
    Well, I'll concede that when it comes to the AR platform you are the man to go to.

    But, until you learn the ways of the big bore revolver and hardcast bullets, you are still not quite there:)

    Speaking of bullets, what's this notion I have been hearing about some who advocate the use of varmit bullets for home defense in the AR? What say ye?
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  4. #244
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post

    Speaking of bullets, what's this notion I have been hearing about some who advocate the use of varmit bullets for home defense in the AR? What say ye?
    I do. But mostly that's because it's all that I have at the moment.

    I'm no ballistician (is that a word?), but I think that my 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips will be fine at HD distances less than 75 yards. I would think that they would fragment and greatly reduce overpenetration.

    The downside, I guess, would be running the risk of underpenetration. Might also be a problem dealing with barriers.

    I've got some 55 grain TSX and 60 grain Partitions that I need to load up to test for an all purpose role. All purpose means HD and coyotes


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  5. #245
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I know EVERYTHING about hardcast bullets and those handguns with that spinny thing in the middle. I just don't talk about it much.... :D

    Varmint bullets for home defense? Off with their heads, say I. One could say it's fair to compare varmint 223 bullets for home defense with birdshot. It'll likely work, but we're risking it not working as quickly as something specifically designed for home defense.

    These rounds will easily toss a groundhog a few feet in the air, end over end, because they dump all of their energy very, very early. What makes them great for small game is what makes them a poor choice for home defense. These bullets may only penetrate a few inches before losing all of their energy. In some cases, they may penetrate 8", which may be adequate, but since the minimum is 12" and the maximum is 18" for ideal penetration, I won't settle for less.

    The way to think of it is this.... Heavy for fragmenting, lighter for barrier blind when fired from a shorter rifle and lighter or heavier barrier blind when fired in excess of 200 meters or on larger game.

    We want heavy 5.56 when choosing an OTM bullet (TAP, MK262, other SMK's, etc.) because they yaw and fragment, essentially exploding. Think of an anti-personel grenade. We want more mass and larger fragments. The only way to get more/larger fragments is by more material. These heavy OTM bullets can be a great choice against soft targets.

    Now, for a barrier blind load like Gold Dot, TSX (my choice for basically every single use I have for 5.56 now), Trophy Bonded Bear Claw XM556FBIT3, Winchester 62gr JSP RA556B, etc., the the primary wounding mechanism is expansion. This is not dependent on weight like fragmenting bullets. One of the best for defeating auto glass and still performing reliably on soft targets is the Black Hills TSX 50gr. It's also one of the better choices for short barreled rifles, giving maximum expansion from a 10.5" to distances that TAP would struggle from an 16".

    The heavier barrier blind loads like the 70gr TSX offer better longer range performance and deeper penetration at those ranges, but are also great choices for close range work as well as performing optimally from short barreled rifles. There are many reports of 70gr TSX quickly dropping 350 to 400 pound hogs at distances in excess of 150 yards. Same foes for large deer. Take a look at the new military "Brown Tip". It's essentially a 70gr TSX and has proven extremely effective from 10.5" rifles to 18".

    By all accounts, military, law enforcement, self defense and hunting bullets in 5.56 are moving towards barrier blind construction as they're proving themselves in all areas. What used to be reserved for 308 can often be handled now with 5.56 loaded with 70gr TSX, for example. Not all cases, but it's certainly overlapping much more than before.
    Tayopo and glockman10mm like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  6. #246
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    I do. But mostly that's because it's all that I have at the moment.

    I'm no ballistician (is that a word?), but I think that my 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips will be fine at HD distances less than 75 yards. I would think that they would fragment and greatly reduce overpenetration.

    The downside, I guess, would be running the risk of underpenetration. Might also be a problem dealing with barriers.

    I've got some 55 grain TSX and 60 grain Partitions that I need to load up to test for an all purpose role. All purpose means HD and coyotes


    Sent from my Galaxy S2
    I'd dump that Nosler for home defense and load the TSX hot. The Nosler is too explosive and against a target with excess fat or muscle may not penetrate deep enough to be stop the threat. The 55gr TsX will without hesitation.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #247
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I'd dump that Nosler for home defense and load the TSX hot. The Nosler is too explosive and against a target with excess fat or muscle may not penetrate deep enough to be stop the threat. The 55gr TsX will without hesitation.
    You're talking about the Nosler ballistic tip, right?

    I would think that the Nosler Partition would hold up better.

    In your previous post, you mentioned different bullet types, like Gold Dot & etc., but you didn't mention weights. I'm guessing something in the 70 grain range?




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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  8. #248
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Sorry about that... Yes, I meant the ballistic tip. Any type of fragmenting ammo lighter than 69gr, preferably 75gr or 77gr, is not the best choice.

    As far as the ammo like Gold Dot, TBBC, Winchester, etc., the 62gr (or very close) JSP is a great choice. We're not relying on fragmentation, so the lighter weight can be a benefit by giving higher velocities. The TSX comes in 50, 55, 62 and 70. All of these work well, but the 50gr and 70gr are the best choices in my opinion. But, there are teo different 50gr bullets. One is available for reloading and the other is the Black Hills 50gr. The Black Hills 50gr has more robust petals that won't sheer like the others, the only downside is that bullet is not available for reloading.

    The Black Hills is one of the best bullets available for 0-200 meters, for use in SBR's and when intermediate barriers like auto glass and doors are a concern. It will perform better than most in those situations. The 70gr TSX, I prefer the 5.56 loading from Stan Chen, is better suited for hunting than the 50gr, though both will perform well. It's also a wise choice for longer ranges but will still perform extremely well from short rifles and close range. The bullet may not hold up as well as the more robust 50gr from Black Hills though when contacting auto glass, for example.

    OTM loads like TAP and Mk262 are very poor performers after contacting auto glass or similar barriers.

    The XM556FBIT3 used by the FBI is an amazing performer as well. It's expensive but worth it. There's a 223 version and a 5.56 version. I'd certainly opt for the 5.56 as the higher velocities give considerably better performance.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  9. #249
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I've got a headache. Too much to know when it comes to 5.56 loads. And how the heck are you supposed to know ahead of time what you will encounter?

    Ugh. I've got 60 gr Hornady .223 TAP loaded in my Mini 14. Mainly because it's what the store had. Hope it works.

    With a shotgun, it's so much easier...buckshot. Any flavor. It works.
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  10. #250
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    It's so much easier with an M1 carbine, you can choose a 110 gr jsp or a 110 gr fmj
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  11. #251
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Ladies & Gentlemen, this includes you jokers also. After coffee, let's get a few things settled ~~

    I am a wolf in shotgun clothes. I have an old 10 gauge, muzzle loading, double barrel, shotgun which I used for a few seasons of Pheasant hunting, also my ole Winchester 97 Riot gun,. I probably have put perhaps 2 boxes of 00 through the 97 and maybe 5 lbs of black powder in the 10 gauge muzzle loader, so much for my shot gunning experience. (Cylinder bore naturally )

    The Winchester 97 (cylinder bore also) sits by my bed, but when anything goes snap, pop, or crackle in the night and causes me to investigate, I always, instinctively, grab my S&W mod 28 .357.

    I suppose this is because after years of sleeping with it - no we aren't legally married - and thousands of rounds through it under every condition imaginable, I have developed an affinity for it in that I 'know' where that bullet will go, day or night. Even in complete darkness. However I never shoot without identifying my potential target.

    NO, I am not like that weird deer hunter that I once met in the field, who happily told me " naw, I haven't gotten a Deer yet, but I have had a few good sound shots where they were moving through the scrub Manzanita". Hmmm.

    But, I have studied extensively, interior and external ballistics, and not too many things have changed in this part of Physics. The major advances lie almost exclusively in projectile construction, and powder. The rest is a take of off the auto manufactures spiel, new models of the same old thing in effect.

    You want power in the cap & ball period? go to the Walker Colt, in the cartridge era, go to 45 70 in a pistol which was tested in the late 1800's. in other words most of our hi touted present day cartridges could, in practicality, be eliminated with no loss in effective cartridges or arms.
    '
    Shot guns haven't evolved that much in the conventional configuration, but yes, in the so called combat versions. They have 'reduced felt recoil', and possibly increasd rate of fire because of this. But, they have also irritated my esthetic appreciation of line and function. sigh. Perhaps I have lived to long.

    Today, practically no-one appreciates a true old fashioned cold bluing and top wood work on a rifle / shotgun , snifff. Things that should be admired and loved in themselves, sorta like me ??

    Don Jose de la Mancha

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  12. #252
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I've got a headache. Too much to know when it comes to 5.56 loads. And how the heck are you supposed to know ahead of time what you will encounter?

    Ugh. I've got 60 gr Hornady .223 TAP loaded in my Mini 14. Mainly because it's what the store had. Hope it works.

    With a shotgun, it's so much easier...buckshot. Any flavor. It works.
    It's pretty simple for me... I k keep them loaded with Black Hills 50gr TSX. I used to use 75gr TAP, but prefer the barrier blind characteristics of TSX. I use 70gr TSX for hunting.

    As a rule, working in structures, 75gr TAP or the 50gr TSX are great. Working around vehicles or other barriers, TSX is where it's at. The other stuff is good too, but I keep it simple and stick to these.

    Once you people see what TSX does to soft tissue, even after a windshield or door, they're usually sold. The results are pretty spectacular.

    So, I could get by with 50gr or 70gr TSX for everything. VERY SIMPLE.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #253
    Member Array RAC55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    Ladies & Gentlemen, this includes you jokers also. After coffee, let's get a few things settled ~~

    I am a wolf in shotgun clothes. I have an old 10 gauge, muzzle loading, double barrel, shotgun which I used for a few seasons of Pheasant hunting, also my ole Winchester 97 Riot gun,. I probably have put perhaps 2 boxes of 00 through the 97 and maybe 5 lbs of black powder in the 10 gauge muzzle loader, so much for my shot gunning experience. (Cylinder bore naturally )

    The Winchester 97 (cylinder bore also) sits by my bed, but when anything goes snap, pop, or crackle in the night and causes me to investigate, I always, instinctively, grab my S&W mod 28 .357.

    I suppose this is because after years of sleeping with it - no we aren't legally married - and thousands of rounds through it under every condition imaginable, I have developed an affinity for it in that I 'know' where that bullet will go, day or night. Even in complete darkness. However I never shoot without identifying my potential target.

    NO, I am not like that weird deer hunter that I once met in the field, who happily told me " naw, I haven't gotten a Deer yet, but I have had a few good sound shots where they were moving through the scrub Manzanita". Hmmm.

    But, I have studied extensively, interior and external ballistics, and not too many things have changed in this part of Physics. The major advances lie almost exclusively in projectile construction, and powder. The rest is a take of off the auto manufactures spiel, new models of the same old thing in effect.

    You want power in the cap & ball period? go to the Walker Colt, in the cartridge era, go to 45 70 in a pistol which was tested in the late 1800's. in other words most of our hi touted present day cartridges could, in practicality, be eliminated with no loss in effective cartridges or arms.
    '
    Shot guns haven't evolved that much in the conventional configuration, but yes, in the so called combat versions. They have 'reduced felt recoil', and possibly increasd rate of fire because of this. But, they have also irritated my esthetic appreciation of line and function. sigh. Perhaps I have lived to long.

    Today, practically no-one appreciates a true old fashioned cold bluing and top wood work on a rifle / shotgun , snifff. Things that should be admired and loved in themselves, sorta like me ??

    Don Jose de la Mancha

    -
    Sir, I couldn't agree with you more. There is nothing like handling and shooting a fine piece of gunmakers art. Just knowing that in a lot of cases these beauties were lovingly made by someones hands, by the light of a window so many years ago and being able to enjoy it for a while, then pass it on for the next generation to care for. In this day and age, gunmaking has become so much about the science, and so little about the art. Being and old school retired machinist myself, I always appreciate something that's finely crafted as opposed to stamped out clones rolling off an assembly line. There is so much whiz-bang technology out there today that it has left most people dazed, confused, and most of all, disappointed. I guess that's why a majority of my collection is old school...they have passed the test of time.
    Tayopo and glockman10mm like this.

  14. #254
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    So, I could get by with 50gr or 70gr TSX for everything. VERY SIMPLE.
    Geez...couldn't you have just said that from the get-go?

    I priced some of that ammo...evidently I need a pay raise in order to defend myself properly with a 5.56...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  15. #255
    Senior Member Array ritepath's Avatar
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    Is the shotgun useless:

    I hope not, I have 14 or 15 of them. :)

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