Is a shotgun "useless"?

[Tayopo]

HI exactly, to around 35 meters a shotgun is fantastic. As to firepower, remember each time that you pull that trigger you are effectively sending 12 9 m/m projectiles down range at around the usual 9 m/m velocities. Beats a sub machinegun rate of fire with aces. A full load of 6 gives you 72 9/mm projectiles, beat that.

The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night, say in the brush, or along the Rio Grande, is extremely effective, as any Border Patolman can tell you.

It was the preferred trench warefare weapon in ww-1 against mass atacks, . They even stopped incoming grenades in the air by good wing shooters.

It is no accident that most police cars have one on the dash.

NO a shotgun is no mistake under 30 40 meters, but it is not slective among mixed targets, it gets them all.

Don jose de La Mancha

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[goldshellback]

This is just me......

If your in a firefight where more than ANY number of rounds are exchanged, your in a bad way. Most gunfights are gonna occure within 30'.... pistol, rifle, range certinally, but PERFECT range for a Trench Gun! Eleven .30 caliber pellets per a #1 buckshot placed on target WILL change the attitude of who or whatever is on the 'bidness' end of a shotty.
No, a shotgun is NOT useless unless you have no confidence in your ability with it.

Whoever said it's a useless gun is weakminded.

Yes, a pistol IS, for most of us, a primary weapon. At home or in combat, a pistol is a means to fight your way to a superior weapon(or as a backup to it).... and at home, I'm grabbing the shotty.

[peckman28]

My HD plan is essentially to hunker down in my bedroom, with its one entrance point, with all family members behind me. For such a barricade role, the shotgun is perfect. Whoever opens that door clearly doesn't belong in there, and I will be waiting for them with my shotgun. I am confident that if they come in looking for trouble, that's where they're going to stop.

[pgrass101]

We use pistol caliber carbines for HD. The M1 carbine is light weight handy in size and has low recoil, allowing for rapid accurate fire.

That being said, I have no problems with using a shotgun either. I can just put more rounds on target faster with the carbine

[ScottM]

I prefer the rifle or carbine.

The shotgun has a role, but it is a limited niche, IMO.

The Fighting Shotgun

[munch520]

No gun is useless unless unloaded. That said, my preference is AR (SBR), pistol, then SG. Mainly for these reasons

-hostage shots with SGs are an impossibility and if you don't live alone, this could happen
-even the most trained short stroke with pump SGs (seen it happen)
-anyone who takes ARs/pistols seriously sends thousands of rounds downrange a year. it is rare one does that with a shotgun.
-how many that use a SG for HD have had formal training with one? ran a shoothouse with one? how available are good SG courses?
-SGs are much harder to mount lights/RDS/sling to (a must for HD)
-SGs are longer and heavier
-SGs cannot be suppressed
-SGs have a much lower capacity
-a couple quick movement for an admin reload on a AR (mag release, pull mag out, insert-push/pull fresh magazine) nets me 28 additional rounds. similar movements with a pistol net me 15. the same amount of movement on an SG nets me 1 additional round

I'ld take the shotgun every time ....... much harder to "miss", especially at close range.

Complete fallacy. Shot doesn't spread instantly, at close range (5-7m) the diameter of the shot is not much larger than .5" (unless the barrel is very short).

The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night is extremely effective.

Wouldn't rely on that, especially since in doing so you've now given away your position.

It is no accident that most police cars have one on the dash.

If budget allows, most patrolmen I know still have the SG in the rack but always default to the AR in the trunk if needed. Or throw the AR in the rack (if it fits). And what do most SWAT teams use? Assaulters? Etc. (besides the breacher). This is a clue.

[GrandZJ]

Considering that I live in a city and the surrounding areas are more city and big towns, a shotgun would be my choice for a SHTF scenario.

[Tayopo]

G'morning munch 520: Coffee? you posted --> how many that use a SG for HD have had formal trainging with one?
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Another plus for the shotgun, no formal training as such needed, other than perhaps 1/2 hr in gettting used to it's feel.
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You posted -->-SGs are much harder to mount lights/RDS/sling to (a must for HD)

The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night is extremely effective. Wouldn't rely on that, especially since in doing so you've now given away your position.
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Rather contradicting statements no?
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You posted -->SGs cannot be suppressed
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They certainly can be, but for what pupose?
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You posted -->SGs have a much lower capacity

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Not when you consider 12 9 m/m projectiles per trigger pull. Sides just when do you have time for 28 + 28 rnds unless you are panicking??

As I once mentioned, I have yet to fire all 6 rnds in my S&W .357 in any encounter.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[OD*]

Just for clarification, shotguns can be suppressed.

ETA: I see Tayopo has covered that.

[jonconsiglio]

The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night is extremely effective.

Wouldn't rely on that, especially since in doing so you've now given away your position.

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Rather contradicting statements no?
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The part is bold is what you typed, Matt was just quoting it. Matt's reply was that he wouldn't rely on it.

I think using the sound a shotgun is foolish, at best. Any border patrol agent or officer taking a defensive position near an enemy and THEN racking a round into a chamber needs to be put on desk duty for a year while he spends some time in training. Sadly, it's a very common myth that a criminal would be deterred by this. There is a study that interviewed numerous felons that said the sound of a shotgun did nothing more than medicate what direction to shoot.

Now, I think both the rifle and shotgun make great defensive weapons, but I'm more proficient with a rifle. The only one better is the one you know how to use.

Notice that most law enforcement departments are moving away from shotguns and issuing rifles. Some may still choose to keep a shotgun in their vehicle, but the vast majority are moving away. In some departments, the only place for the shotgun is when it comes to breaching.

[lizjimbo]

The simple racking of a pump action may be enough to give any BG pause for thought. If that don't work then number 8 shot inside the house will do the trick. I keep a 16gauge with 4 rounds in the magazine (nothing in the chamber) for HD (inside the house). The pistols are good for carry but the shotgun is good for scary.

[ScottM]

number 8 shot inside the house will do the trick.

As much fallacy as not having to aim at close range and simply racking the gun being enough to scare the intruder.

Any of these may work but I would not bet my life on it.

[Tayopo]

Gracias Scott: that site - The Fighting Shotgun - was very interesting, I had to go thriugh all 15 pages, naturally. Join me for coffee?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[munch520]

Hey man - I've been up all night so I'm good on the coffee. Resting heart rate has to be approaching 100bpm by now

G'morning munch 520: Coffee? you posted --> how many that use a SG for HD have had formal trainging with one?
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Another plus for the shotgun, no formal training as such needed, other than perhaps 1/2 hr in gettting used to it's feel.

Agree to disagree here, if I'm using any weapon where my life depends on it, I'm gonna train as much as I possibly can.

You posted -->-SGs are much harder to mount lights/RDS/sling to (a must for HD)

The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night is extremely effective. <-- I didn't say that. I said this --> Wouldn't rely on that, especially since in doing so you've now given away your position.
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Rather contradicting statements no?
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I have no idea how the two relate, much less contradict one another.

You posted -->SGs cannot be suppressed
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They certainly can be, but for what pupose?
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OK you got me, they CAN be...how many are running suppressed SGs for home defense though? Compared to how many have suppressors for pistols/rifles? I dare say you got my point before but I'll re-state...it is far more common a practice to suppress a pistol or rifle than it is a SG. There are FAR more manufacturers out there providing said suppressors for pistols/rifles than there are SGs.

You posted -->SGs have a much lower capacity

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Not when you consider 12 9 m/m projectiles per trigger pull. Sides just when do you have time for 28 + 28 rnds unless you are panicking??

As I once mentioned, I have yet to fire all 6 rnds in my S&W .357 in any encounter.

Don Jose de La Mancha

That's a way to rationalize it. I doubt I'll need more than a few rounds, but they are there just in case. And the second magazine is ready to go in the event of a malfunction.




My general thoughts on it are, if you can afford it, there are far superior choices to the SG. Buuuuuuuuuuuut....IF you're on a budget, IF you train extensively with it, IF you know how it patterns, and IF it's a semi-auto...then I'd say the SG is the best choice FOR YOU.

[onacoma]

I was in a discussion with someone who mentioned that a shotgun is not a long gun of first choice. He would rather have a combat rifle. His reasoning was that you can put more ammo down range with a rifle (30 rounds vs. 6-7 of a shotgun), it is faster to reload, can carry more reloads, has a longer range, is lighter and more maneuverable. He also mentioned that if he had no other long gun, a shotgun would do, but his preference is a rifle.

Thoughts.

Spent Wednesday at a Ltc Grossman seminar. In it he again propounded the combat rifle vs the shotgun for LEOs. His reasoning is the increasing use of body armor by the BGs and the ability to reach out and touch someone. Keep in mind that a LEO sniper shots are shown to be under a 100 yards, data shows ±66 yard average. CQB or SD the shotgun works until you introduce the Body Armor. As I have before taken umbrage with the use of a .22 battle rifle (.223 or 5.56mm), I personally perfer 6.8mm or better/bigger. JMHO!