Is a shotgun "useless"?

[Tayopo]

Good morming Ladies & gentlemen: Many have taken issue with my remark that merely racking the action has a strong psychological effect, I agree that not evey time, but most of the time it is quite effective. Only in a stake out is the noise inadviseable. Remember, 99 % of the baddies do not wish to get into a firefight for many reasons, racking the action indicates audibly that you are prepared to do so.

In a practical sense, unless you keep the shot gun loaded with one chambered, and cocked, you will have to rack it - of course, if you are using my personal favorite, My ole Winchester 97 riot gun, you merely thumb back the hammer, also it will fire each time that the action comes to battery if you hold back the trigger - you can get off 2 -3 shots in perhaps a sec if necessary. NOW 'that' is firepower. 24 - 36 9 m/m rounds per sec. hehhe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[munch520]

No worries - just polite discussion!

Remember, 99 % of the baddies do not wish to get into a firefight for many reasons, racking the action indicates audibly that you are prepared to do so.

Me shooting also audibly indicates I am prepared to do so

In a practical sense, unless you keep the shot gun loaded with one chambered, and cocked, you will have to rack it - of course

A round can almost silently be chambered in an AR by riding the charging handle forward; an otherwise inadvisable manipulation. The final step of this sequence involves using the forward assist (only time I've ever used it) to completely lock the bolt in the chamber.

[HotGuns]

My shotgun can fire 6 rounds per second and it can have a 20 or even a 30 round drum on it.

I can alternate those rounds any way I choose. I can go with any combo of buckshot or slug and it that dont stop the threat, the last two rounds of Dragons Breath ought to burn em to death.

If that dont work I slam the gun upside the head and run like the devil.

[munch520]

If that dont work I slam the gun upside the head and run like the devil.

"thumbsup" to that!

[Tayopo]

,Munch 250: the coffee is on at any time for you. Lupita dos cafe Y pan dulce --

Regarding training, I apologize in that I did not further clarify that, I firmly believe that one 'cannot train enough' in what ever weapon one chooses for his primary defense, or for that matter any weapon in your arsenal. I settled on the S&W .357. I went through 5 -10 boxes of full power reloads 'daily and nightly' for over year before I was confident that I knew my pistol and could use it effectively with or without light.. - I also worked on my qiuck draw from an open top hip holster.

With the help of top people helping and advising me, i reached a 3/5 th of sec draw and hit on a sil traget to 3 -7 meters.
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You also posted --> SGs are much harder to mount lights/RDS/sling to (a must for HD) & especially since in doing so you've now given away your position.

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Frankly don't both give away your position ? Personally I am against lights etc. for aiming, simply learn to use your weapon.
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On suppressors, just why would you want or need one for home defense?
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You posted --> there are far superior choices to the SG.
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Now you know why I practiced so extensively with my S&W .357.

Sheeh my fried now 'I' need anther cuppa coffee.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Tayopo]

munch250 HI again. You posted -->A round can almost silently be chambered in an --.
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Agreed, almost.
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You posted -> Me shooting also audibly indicates I am prepared to do so
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Ya see? we 'do' think alike. hehehhe

Don jose de La Mancha el coffee hound

[Tayopo]

Morning hot guns, join muncher and I for coffee?

Sheehs, on your post --> I can alternate those rounds any way I choose. I can go with any combo of buckshot or slug and it that dont stop the threat, the last two rounds of Dragons Breath ought to burn em to death.
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where ya gonna sleep later with a buned out home?

Don Jose de La Mancha

[munch520]

Regarding training, I apologize in that I did not further clarify that, I firmly believe that one 'cannot train enough' in what ever weapon one chooses for his primary defense, or for that matter any weapon in your arsenal.

Completely agree!

Frankly don't both give away your position ? Personally I am against lights etc. for aiming, simply learn to use your weapon.

Lights are an absolute necessity, handheld or weapon-mounted. They serve to 1. positively identify the target 2. disorient the target

That said, they are never 'on'. Most trainers and professionals will recommend 'flashbulbing', a brief flash of the light in the direction of interest, followed immediately by lateral movement. The RDS is very advantageous in this setting as well, since you are able to aim without giving away your position (compared to not having an RDS, and having to aim by using a white light/silhouetting your sights).

On suppressors, just why would you want or need one for home defense?

Both carbines and shotguns (barrel and ammunition dependant) register 150-160dbs when fired unsuppressed. This WILL render anyone in the area completely deaf, save some ringing - Tinnitus. The muzzle flash will also temporarily blind and disorient you and your target.

Suppressors attempt to alleviate that flash, and bring the noise level down below the 140db 'hearing safe' threshold. They've an invaluable tool, and put you at a distinct advantage. Which is why I'm plunking down $ for one as we speak :)

Comparison of suppressed v unsuppressed
Suppressed Vs. Unsuppressed comparison... - YouTube

start at 1:22
Larry Vickers and a Suppressed M4 - YouTube

[pgrass101]

Both carbines and shotguns (barrel and ammunition dependant) register 150-160dbs when fired unsuppressed. This WILL render anyone in the area completely deaf, save some ringing - Tinnitus. The muzzle flash will also temporarily blind and disorient you and your target.

The flash and bang will disorient your target much more because they do not know it is coming and adds to the level of violence. It is my firm belief that if someone is trying to violate me or my family I will try to unleash a level of violence on them that they are both unprepared for and never knew existed.

If I was not just trying to repel boarders and was in a more SHTF situation then a suppressor would be more advantageous. I am not saying that they have no place in HD, but for me I would rather spend the money on training and ammo.

[munch520]

The flash and bang will disorient your target much more because they do not know it is coming and adds to the level of violence. It is my firm belief that if someone is trying to violate me or my family I will try to unleash a level of violence on them that they are both unprepared for and never knew existed.

If I was not just trying to repel boarders and was in a more SHTF situation then a suppressor would be more advantageous. I am not saying that they have no place in HD, but for me I would rather spend the money on training and ammo.

Completely agree, but it has affected me as well (12" and 16" carbines, A2 FHs, XM193 in a 12x12 enclosure). The noise more than the flash.

I agree with the violence...so long as it doesn't impede my ability to perceive threats (audibly, visibly, etc.)

[BigJon10125]

In my house a SG is my first choice. Much of it is based om neighbors proximity, choke point, comfort and reliability and all the other issues you all have mentioned. I would not hesitate to grab a rifle as well, but my current setup would be an sks as all I can buy here are neutered rifles. My SG has only one less round than the rifle, so it fits my needs. Love the opinions and info btw.

[pgrass101]

I agree with the violence...so long as it doesn't impede my ability to perceive threats (audibly, visibly, etc.)

You hit the main reason for a suppressor right there, by blinding and deafening myself I have not only given away my position (even though I believe in moving while shooting, in a HD situation I will most likely be defending a fixed position) but have limited my ability to identify more targets.

I have never fired my M1 carbine in doors without hearing protection, so I cannot say what the sound does. I have fired a .357 revolver in doors in the dark without hearing protection and will have to say that it was impressive in sound and fury, but I would not say it was disorienting for me, but only because I was expecting the bang.

[jonconsiglio]

I want in on that coffee! I made my last pot of Starbucks around 6am and have moved down to the Folgers.

I don't care what people choose for personal use, as long as they choose something. Both have benefits and disadvantages. To the original post, shotguns are certainly not useless, but they are chosen less and less by law enforcement and even home owners. There's a very good reason for this with law enforcement.

I know what works for me. I know how well I can shoot each, but I have significantly more training on the handgun and rifle than I do the shotgun. Even comparing an 18" barreled shotgun to a 16" rifle, there's a significant difference in size and handling for me.

I shot center mass of 00 buckshot will certainly ruin anyone's day. One or two shots of 75gr TAP or other quality defensive load will do the same from a 5.56 rifle. The advantage for me is that I can handle the rifle better, faster and with much less effort. This doesn't mean the rifle is better for everyone, it just means I'm more confident with it for my home defense weapon of choice.

Same goes for work. I prefer a short rifle, though a handgun is my primary weapon. Working from a vehicle, the rifle is certainly easier for me to handle. Same goes for the handgun.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd never even entertain the thought that anything other than a bullet will be a deterrent. If I go into a fight without one in the chamber, I certainly am starting off on the wrong foot.

Regardless of what I choose, I always have a handgun on me as well.

This is my 18" Benelli M4 next to my 14.5" BCM. Even the ones I've handled with a collapsible stock and even a 14.5" barrel, they feel more unwieldy to me and at these size, even somewhat clumsy. For the record, I do have advanced training on a shotgun and have done a few shoot houses, just not nearly as many as I have with a rifle or handgun. I can manage with one fine, but still not as well as a short rifle.

[whoppo]

A shotgun is far from useless. In the right hands an SG can be a formidable weapon in many situations, but for just as many situations it may not be the best choice.

For "around the house" defense I choose a handgun, simply because I can conveniently have it on my person at all times. It's impractical to carry a long arm from room to room while going about my tasks. For night time we've got handguns on either side of our bed in open gunvaults and should an intruder somehow manage to get past the perimeter security efforts they could provide a quick grab-point-shoot solution. Given an intrusion scenario with more notice (sound of a door being breached, glass breaking, etc.) I would, if it seemed that time would allow, opt for my first choice in HD weapons which is a suppressed 7" AR Pistol with a light, a laser and an RDS.

For me it's more an issue of what I feel comfortable with than it is of which projectiles have what properties. I shoot my HG's and AR's a LOT and have attained a level of functional proficiency that I simply don't have with my smoothbores. In a potentially life threatening situation the last thing I want is to do is use up foreground processing resources on the mechanical functionality of my weapon when I need to be focusing on the mission.


Tayopo asked: On suppressors, just why would you want or need one for home defense?
Simple: Guns are loud and even louder inside a house. The report from any significant caliber can be painful enough to impede your actions and can deafen you and your spouse/partner making important communications difficult or even impossible. Some firearm / ammo combinations can generate blinding muzzle flash... My 7 inch AR with a linear compensator and M855 ammo or many of the commercial defensive loads will belch out a 12-16 inch flare that would essentially blind me in a darkened environment. A suppressor solves both of these problems. oh yeah... and it looks cool too (^_^)

No.. A shotgun is not useless, but in my humble opinion it's not always ideal for personal defense.

[nedrgr21]

NOW 'that' is firepower. 24 - 36 9 m/m rounds per sec.Don Jose dncha

Nope, more misleading info on the SG. Each pellet of 00 Buck is nowhere near a 9mm. They are 32 caliber weighing in at about 55 grains, and usually soft lead, which has deformed even before hitting the target, impeding penetration.