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Is a shotgun "useless"?

28K views 255 replies 55 participants last post by  Tayopo 
#1 ·
I was in a discussion with someone who mentioned that a shotgun is not a long gun of first choice. He would rather have a combat rifle. His reasoning was that you can put more ammo down range with a rifle (30 rounds vs. 6-7 of a shotgun), it is faster to reload, can carry more reloads, has a longer range, is lighter and more maneuverable. He also mentioned that if he had no other long gun, a shotgun would do, but his preference is a rifle.

Thoughts.
 
#189 ·
hi glock guy: I still want a .600 Jefferies. You couldn't be more correct on the double barreled weapon, In the video, one would not have time to work a bolt action, but for a double barrel rifle or shotgun, it s a very simple move for the second barrel / shot.

In the old days of the prolonged safaris, a double barreled rifle, or shotgun, was extremely valuable in other ways, in that you effectively had two weapons in one, so if you had one fail, you still had a weapon until you finally returned to civilization where it could be repaired, often measured in weeks.

Err, ah speaking of the .600 Jefferies glocker, did you know that we are in the vicinity of my birthday ?? Hint hint.


Don jose de La Mancha
 
#190 ·
My main reason for a rifle is simple; I have one in my hands nearly every single day, keep one in the vehicle at work and dry practice with one daily. The same can be said for the handgun, but we all know both the shotgun and rifle are far better choices.

Secondary reasons fall to my shooting style and training. I'm in the camp that whether we're defending ourselves with a rifle, shotgun or handgun, multiple hits deliver as fast and accurately as possible are a good thing and this is how I train. Even if I take the Benelli to the range, ever single drill I run involves multiple shots. For me, with a handgun or rifle, as soon as I'm on target and have elided to fire, that first round is quickly followed by a few more, then assess. The rifle obviously fits this role better for me.

Last year or the year before, we had a string of home invasions. Four men, meth addicts we later found out, were kicking in doors. At least two were armed and all were wearing soft armor. These home invasions were violent, aggressive and fast.

I have two children, they sleep on opposite ends of the house. I need to get to them in an emergency, so staying put is not an option. God forbid that a couple of guys made it into my home armed and wearing soft armor, I'll need to rapidly defeat the soft armor and devastate whatever is behind it. For me, a 10.5" 5.56 rifle loaded with 75gr TAP or Black Hills 50gr TSX fills that role nicely. Especially once I get to the kids and my daughter won't budge and I have to carry her.

It's a personal thing. The shotgun is a great choice as long as we avoid birdshot. But for me, it's not.

I think the only way to know for sure the pros and cons of each, is to spend 15 minutes a day, give or take, for the next couple weeks doing dry work at our homes. Before that, we should attend advanced training and preferrablt some shoot house classes. Until we are taught how to properly use each weapon, we really can't know what is "best", all we really know is what we're comfortable with.

I DO NOT want a big bore rifle or a bolt action for home defense.
 
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#192 ·
Jon, I totally agree with that. Soft armor is an issue, although I would not want to be on the receiving end of a blast of 00B with one on. But you make your point, and I concur.

Possibly geography could play a role in the selection also. These meth heads and inbreds most encountered around these parts can't afford to get their damn teeth fixed, let alone afford a vest. Plus the more rural area has it's own style of miscreants, and while they may be motivated, they are generally not very progressive.

And another thing you mention, shooting style. I think that speaks volumes.
 
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#193 ·
Possibly geography could play a role in the selection also. These meth heads and inbreds most encountered around these parts can't afford to get their damn teeth fixed, let alone afford a vest. Plus the more rural area has it's own style of miscreants, and while they may be motivated, they are generally not very progressive.
That's a great point!

Things like vests were unheard of (in criminal hands) up here until recent years. Recently, we've had a steady influx of gangs, especially MS13, in the area with increased home invasions and impressive armament; AK47s, vests, even flashbangs used. They've been mainly raiding competitors' stash houses to score good amounts of cash/weapons/contraband but they have followed some innocent families home from places like the grocery store and robbed them.

Same plays true for where we hunt down in SE OH/N KY...there's some growin land/meth houses down there and they take protecting that stuff seriously! A recent raid netted agents some of the weapons/support gear I mentioned above.
 
#195 ·
You know you're always welcome any time. You know John?!
 
#197 ·
Thanks bro. Likewise for you if you and the family wanna come up and visit the heartland! Lol. Weekend at the farm may be fun, if your family likes riding horses and stuff.

I don't know ironman personally. We tried to link up on my last trip but it was short notice. But yea he said he knows IraqNinja and wants to get the 4 of us together next year or somethin. Sounds like a good time to me.
 
#198 ·
ned, you are a bit fascinating however let us say "why not play Tarzan and kill em with a knife", or with a spear as the native population still does.. I believe that most of your questions were adequately answered long ago ???


C'omon out into the patio and watch the humming birds play in the fountain spray. You can even watch Lupita's sexy wriggle, while she serves us coffee and fresh hot sweet rolls. Relax.

Don Jose de La Mancha:yup::smile
 
#200 ·
I'm sold Tayopo, I'm on my way now!

Munch, IraqNinja's a good dude. Paradigm got some OBR's and he just personally picked up a SCAR H and a 9" 300blk he wants to use to slay some hogs.

We keep trying to link up for another trip, but one of us is always tied up with something or I can't get access to the ranch. Last time we went, we swore to his kid he could have the first hog. We were driving around and checking things out the first afternoon and his kid asks "Is that a pig?". We almost knocked him over fighting for a good shot, it took off into the wooded area and John and I went after it, leaving my buddy and his kid behind for about 30 minutes.

It's a lot of fun out there.
 
#203 ·
Now THAT is a hog-slaying-arsenal.

Haha that's great, sounds like fierce competition. Lets make it happen!

I take it you don't do skeet, trap or sporting clays. Guys/gals who do put many thousand rounds down range annually, they can hit moving targets and pretty well know their gun. Most don't use a pump or auto loader, but some do. I do not think it rare to see thousands of rounds go through a shotty annually.
Not any significant amount no.

I still think its more likely that the average owner will put more rounds through their AR than their SG.
 
#204 ·
I believe that an AR is more user friendly.

My 10 year old can wield my AR. It's light enough, and recoils soft enough, that he can make a soda can dance all day inside 50 yards.

"Is a shotgun useless?" No. But the guy who doesn't know how to use it makes it so.
 
#206 ·
KS, I'll buy your post 100% You earned yer coffee. Lupita --

What I was referring to, is that under normal circumstances in using a shot gun, other than my old 97, or a visibly hammered one, you normally do not go around with one chambered and with the safety on, ugh.

The same applies to my concealed or open carry pistol.

I just don't '''trust'''' safeties, or keeping the hammer spring under tension indefinitely..

In fact, one of my pet peeves in the westerns is that the hero is expecting a possible momentary attack so he levers a cartridge into the chamber. doing precisely what you mentioned, also throwing his canteen away when it is empty..

Once my partner and I were backpacking down the west coast of Mexico before there were any roads, just trails, we were forced to go without water for 3 days due to the next two water sources being dry, this is why it is a sensitive spot with me.


See middle picture, left column, for hitting a river at the last moment, and lower right for the main road down the Western coast Of Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha Organism Photography Art


p.s. I am the left guy with the machete gathering lagoon oysters
 
#209 ·
We shoot full auto at all of our ranges. Only the indoor does not allow the 50. We can use the bays at the rifle and pistol club and set up courses and at the public outdoor range we have to be IDPA members to use the bays.

I would have little reason to go to the range with such asinine rules.

For the record, we don't see anywhere near the shotguns like we do semi auto rifles. We have carbine competitions, IDPA, IPSC and 3 gun. No dedicated shotgun competitions though. Eventhough I wouldn't attend, it would be nice for those that prefer the shotgun to get something more than stationary shooting.
 
#211 ·
At this point it's just conversation about whatever comes up.... Kind of cool actually.
 
#214 ·
Everyone that has a rifle knows that it must be sighted in.

How many people know that a shotgun must be patterned?



Sent from my Galaxy S2
 
#215 ·
Pretty simple answer for me.... In my home for defense it's my Mossberg 500 Predator; eight rounds of 00buck plus a sidesaddle full of slugs, I pity the fool that kicks my door in. Outside in the field, it would be my S&WAR. Both have their strengths and their place in the arsenal.
 
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#222 ·
I like the pump action. You know, because at the sound of it racking all the bad guys defecate themselves and get outta Dodge. :rolleyes:

Nah, really just 'cause it's simple and affordable.

Sent from my Galaxy S2
 
#223 ·
I really like my double. But, I think the Mossy 500 series is a great value for the money. Especially the model with the riot and hunting barrel combo. A good working mans shotty.
 
#226 ·
I have an 870 with the magazine loaded in my bedroom. There is something about the sound of loading the chamber with the pump action. Everybody who hears it knows exactly what it is without seeing it. I believe this sound will intimidate an intruder and if not I have a better chance hitting my target.
 
#227 ·
I like the Mossberg 500, grew up shooting them. And the security field combo is a really great buy if someone is going to buy one gun.

I have thought about getting a double, I'd like a Stoeger coach gun supreme with choke tubes. I could use it for turkeys, and HD. Plus a double barrel does have a certain intimidation factor when you are looking down both barrels.....
 
#230 ·
That's generally how it works around here. Welcome to the club.
 
#231 ·
Ok, I'm nothing if not persistent (and curious). I emailed a few safari outfitters on the buckshot for lions question. Apologies if I upset the recent tranquility of the thread, but here are the responses from PH's and one staff member in Africa [bolded is mine]:

Thanks for your email.
Going after lions with a shotgun is a seriously stupid decision. The only reason is that a shotgun doesn’t penetrate on a lion and it doesn’t have the stopping power like a Big 5 rifle. A charging lion is something coming at you at very high speed, you have one shot make it count.
Best Regards
Adrian de Guisti
Gotsoma Safaris


I am not a PH but I have hunted Africa a bunch as have my clients. Most PH's carry a large caliber rifle when lion hunting. Usually a .458 Lott or bigger and that is there "stopping gun". I have heard of 00 buck being used on leopards but generally not lions. These are generalizations and it is conceivable that some PH's would use a shotgun on lion but not many.I think the reason is because any stopping gun must be able to stop an elephant or buffalo as well and a shotgun would only serve to annoy an elephant of buffalo.

Todd


Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reality is, we never use shotguns for a follow up on a Lion…
We do on Leopard sometimes, but not Lion.The reason is the way they run when they charge you. A leopard runs in a zig zag motion, close to the ground and very, very quick. It is very difficult to hit with just a single shot gun, hence the use of a shotgun.A lion on the other hand runs upright and in a straight line, making it easier to line up with a normal rifle. When following up a Lion, I (and all other PH’s I know) always only use my Rem 416.

Hope that makes sense.
Talk soon!
Riaan van der Merwe
Phirima Safaris
 
#234 ·
Nedrgr21, I think you are finding out that on a " big five" game hunt this is true.

However, it depends largely on terrain. Africa has alot of different terrain.

In the areas I hunt, in the Limpopo Province, it's the Bushveld area. Vision and shot distance are limited due to thick growth, and this is primarily the place where the shotgun for lion takes over as a back up to a charge attack.
 
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#236 ·
My favorite shotgun is a an Italian Perdersoli black powder double gun I keep loaded with nails and broken glass....

Nah, just kidding! I know at this point Jon is rolling on the floor pulling out his hair and having a kiniption fit, lol.

I have 3 AR platforms, 1 Bushy A2, and 2 Colt M4s. They are real battle guns, and I have a sort of attachment to them because of familiarization from 8 years of military service. Additionally they get used during SRT training, and as special transport vehicle weapons. They are all stock configuration.

But my real enjoyable guns are the older designs. They are just more fun for me and I enjoy using them more.

I do have the Pedersoli, in a 10 bore, that I have used for turkey hunting. It's fun to shoot, but I hate the black powder clean up afterwards.

I had a Franchi, which was very light, and a great all round hunting shotgun.
I could kick myself for letting it get away.
 
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