Is a shotgun "useless"?

This is a discussion on Is a shotgun "useless"? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio This is what Dr Roberts always talks about. As a surgeon, he's seen a fair share of firearm related injuries. I ...

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Thread: Is a shotgun "useless"?

  1. #91
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    This is what Dr Roberts always talks about. As a surgeon, he's seen a fair share of firearm related injuries.
    I was always under the impression that the Doc Roberts who is heavily involved in ballistics study was a Naval dentist

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    My shotty has 2 barrels and, a big smile behind them.

    Doesnt matter if its an AR, Benelli Super blaster, or Super Zapper, its the resolve and experience of the person behind it.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #93
    Member Array the6shooter's Avatar
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    I guess, my pain level must be lower than most of you people here.
    If I broke into someones home and I, was met with the buisness end of a shot gun, and was shot with it.
    I know it's going to hurt like H. E. double L. if it's a single shot, Im going to back off and try a different way, Like when that person is NOT home.
    But if he has my winchester defender 1300, I know he has at least 5 more comming my way, I'm running.................. And you ???
    david
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  5. #94
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the6shooter View Post
    I guess, my pain level must be lower than most of you people here.
    If I broke into someones home and I, was met with the buisness end of a shot gun, and was shot with it.
    I know it's going to hurt like H. E. double L. if it's a single shot, Im going to back off and try a different way, Like when that person is NOT home.
    But if he has my winchester defender 1300, I know he has at least 5 more comming my way, I'm running.................. And you ???
    david
    I agree with you on this. Interesting fodder for forum discussion, but of little value in the real world.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I was always under the impression that the Doc Roberts who is heavily involved in ballistics study was a Naval dentist
    You're correct, at least I think that's the case. He teaches at Stanford's trauma center, is a surgeon and has been employed By a couple agencies to perform ballistics research and analysis. I've heard him talk about being in the OR with firearms related injuries, maybe it was in more of a ballistics analysts role and not performing the surgery itself. That I don't know.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #96
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    A shotgun at close proximity, regardless of the load, is pretty devastating
    I hope that my comment above was not misunderstood, as it well may have been. I was thinking 10-15 feet, and not lightweight birdshot 7-8-9's. Sorry for the clarification so late. I have 00 in my Benelli, personally.

    Approaching the point of a low powered 10mm training round?
    I miss your point I guess. Can you elaborate?

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I have the solution for the birdshot dilemma!

    Want to use birdshot? Worried about overpenetration? But still want to stop the BG?

    Look no further than the "cut shell." Now - this will NOT cycle in a semi auto or pump shotgun, but will work fine in a double. What you end up with is the world's largest "Glaser safety slug."

    The lost art of "Cut Shells" - YouTube

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  9. #98
    Member Array Moundman's Avatar
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    I'm torn. I love my shotty and AR. But for home defense I have my shotgun at my bed and my AR is in my safe.

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the6shooter View Post
    I guess, my pain level must be lower than most of you people here.
    If I broke into someones home and I, was met with the buisness end of a shot gun, and was shot with it.
    I know it's going to hurt like H. E. double L. if it's a single shot, Im going to back off and try a different way, Like when that person is NOT home.
    But if he has my winchester defender 1300, I know he has at least 5 more comming my way, I'm running.................. And you ???
    david
    1. Do you do drugs ....?????? especially such as meth, bath salts, etc
    2. So, even in your right mind, a SG wouldn't keep you from doing what want - just make you rethink your tactics? - sorry, not good enough.
    3. Hardly any BG is gonna id what kind of SG is used against them.

  11. #100
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Good afternoon jonconsiglio, Ladies & gentlemen: My friend I will contest you later on individual shot performance and to the mass shot effect in reference to room distances., but, for the present, as I hinted, a single 00 at around 1200 fps is almost the same as the Navy colt .36, which has accounted for many a BG and Injun in the old west. (me part injun so don't get up tight peeps)

    The ole Navy colt was considered a good man stopper among the pistols available, which included perhaps the best of all, The ...44 Dragoon (Walker colt, almost equal to the present .44 magnum.)

    Now as to shotguns being effective, it's history of usage speaks for itself.

    All stage coaches used it as their primary defensive arm.

    All police / Sheriff depts. used it, most still use it, as the their primary close in weapon.

    Prisons also used it.

    The US military used it extensively, and it was considered the best by far, for stopping the Juramentado Muslim in the Philippines..

    The Us Army issued it for extensive use in the trench warfare in WW-1, It was extremely effective for breaking up the German mass attacks. It was so affective that it lead to the German's official protest that by using lead shot, it violated the Geneva convention and that all Allied soldiers caught with a shotgun would be executed on the spot. The US retaliated with an appropriate remark, and the German order was never carried out

    Even in the rev. and later the civil war, shotguns were considered as basic defensive arms especially suited for night work.
    sheesh I could go on for pages in which it was, and is, considered as a serious weapon,

    It is still considered as the weapon of choice for the wounded big cats, Lion, Leopards, and Tigers, in thick coverage. Shall we hint at room size zones?

    So enough examples, as to 'terminal ballistics', may I point to a slight error, we are interested in 'delivered ballistics, energy, regardless of range. One refers to potential energy for deliverance, the other to actual 'delivered energy', many times there is a vast difference.

    In my study of homicides I was told to always caution the investigating doctor to be especial watchful for the shot wad, for evidence, At close range -say across a room - the shot charge has spread very little and many times the shot would carry the wad into the wound.. The location of the wad could sometimes be useful in identifying the distance that that particular shotgun had been fired. All shotguns perform differently.

    Side issue, most shot patterns in a room are almost in a solid column of densely packed shot, far far different from individual shot. So there is no way to calculate the one in reference to the other. In one case the shot pattern produced a 3 inch hole to the back bone, it was quite effective.

    Don jose de La Mancha
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  12. #101
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    Thanks tayopo you have a better way of explaining it then myself, i know when i explained it on #5 section of this forumi make it sound to dramatic and makes me look ignorant its just me its how i talk, and it throws everyone completly off and im sorry, again thanx,well said.even though everyones statment also made alot of sense... Eddie.

  13. #102
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    I ment section #4 not #5 my bad.

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    Good afternoon jonconsiglio, Ladies & gentlemen: My friend I will contest you later on individual shot performance and to the mass shot effect in reference to room distances., but, for the present, as I hinted, a single 00 at around 1200 fps is almost the same as the Navy colt .36, which has accounted for many a BG and Injun in the old west. (me part injun so don't get up tight peeps)

    The ole Navy colt was considered a good man stopper among the pistols available, which included perhaps the best of all, The ...44 Dragoon (Walker colt, almost equal to the present .44 magnum.)

    Now as to shotguns being effective, it's history of usage speaks for itself.

    All stage coaches used it as their primary defensive arm.

    All police / Sheriff depts. used it, most still use it, as the their primary close in weapon.

    Prisons also used it.

    The US military used it extensively, and it was considered the best by far, for stopping the Juramentado Muslim in the Philippines..

    The Us Army issued it for extensive use in the trench warfare in WW-1, It was extremely effective for breaking up the German mass attacks. It was so affective that it lead to the German's official protest that by using lead shot, it violated the Geneva convention and that all Allied soldiers caught with a shotgun would be executed on the spot. The US retaliated with an appropriate remark, and the German order was never carried out

    Even in the rev. and later the civil war, shotguns were considered as basic defensive arms especially suited for night work.
    sheesh I could go on for pages in which it was, and is, considered as a serious weapon,

    It is still considered as the weapon of choice for the wounded big cats, Lion, Leopards, and Tigers, in thick coverage. Shall we hint at room size zones?

    So enough examples, as to 'terminal ballistics', may I point to a slight error, we are interested in 'delivered ballistics, energy, regardless of range. One refers to potential energy for deliverance, the other to actual 'delivered energy', many times there is a vast difference.

    In my study of homicides I was told to always caution the investigating doctor to be especial watchful for the shot wad, for evidence, At close range -say across a room - the shot charge has spread very little and many times the shot would carry the wad into the wound.. The location of the wad could sometimes be useful in identifying the distance that that particular shotgun had been fired. All shotguns perform differently.

    Side issue, most shot patterns in a room are almost in a solid column of densely packed shot, far far different from individual shot. So there is no way to calculate the one in reference to the other. In one case the shot pattern produced a 3 inch hole to the back bone, it was quite effective.

    Don jose de La Mancha
    It seems that you bring some knowledge to the table and I liked your viewpoint, history lesson and presentation.

    However, I don't think anyone is doubting the shotgun as a solid HD weapon. I believe the point of contention is the argument for and against bird shot, and that there is no way to consistently predict terminal results with its use.
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  15. #104
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    It seems that you bring some knowledge to the table and I liked your viewpoint, history lesson and presentation.

    However, I don't think anyone is doubting the shotgun as a solid HD weapon. I believe the point of contention is the argument for and against bird shot, and that there is no way to consistently predict terminal results with its use.
    Agreed. My only negative comment was about birdshot not being a reliable defensive load and should not be relied upon to make single shot stops with any consistency.

    Tayopo, good post. I do agree the shotgun is a formidable weapon and one that makes a great choice for home defense.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #105
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Jon, Gentlemen coffee is being seved in the patio, join me?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
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