G'morning nedrgr: Join the others in the patio for coffee?? It is a bit cloudy today, but still nice out there.
Frankly I don't need to say much, since the others have already said it, very simply and nicely, thank you my friends
As for today's generation of firearms, one could probably eliminate 90% of them and still not actually lose any effective field performance in self defense.
simple example on how the lil ole .38 spec manages to hold on, and should hold on.
I have seen instant stoppers with it and dismal failures. In one case, while I was still in the Border Patrol, we had rounded up a group of wets and were processing them out in the field. Suddenly we heard a shot. There was a moment of no movement then we started to look around. All that I saw was a group of wide eyed, scared wets, who probably thought that were going to shoot them. Then I noticed one of the new men was looking a bit sheepish with his Colt Border patrol .38 special in his hand.
It seems that he, and his partner, who was a new man also, had been playing with a few hand to gland moves, when he decided to simulate a quick draw on his partner. He had forgotten that contrary to the movies, in hi speed drawing to shoot, one cannot stop himself from shooting due to training, even though he may realize that he was covered by his opponent, so he had simply fired.
We looked around to see where his bullet had gone, when his partner, who was standing next to him, suddenly turned white, then collapsed. He had been shot in his spleen at about 3 ft . I was one of those that donated blood to save him, which they did.
So here is an example where the .38 spec. not only failed to stop a calm man, not under drugs, etc, or the threat of apprehension had been shot at only 3 ft or so, yet didn't even realize it, the sound and feeling of the close discharge had eliminated all physical reactions??
Never-the-less, having seen other shootings in which the .38 couldn't have performed better, I still have a lil ole .38 S&W combat masterpiece in my arsenal
the same goes for shotgun loads, while we have basically shown that the shot gun is fine defensive weapon under many circumstances, we are back to square one on the matter of where, what distances, and what size shot is best in general for home defense. I cast my vote for the compromise '00' size.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Back again on my 3 rd cuppa coffee: What should be discussed is the matter of distance and the size of shot. At close range a mass of #8, depending upon the individual shotgun, will still be in a compacted column and has a very devestating effect on soft tissue. At further distances it starts to spread and quickly looses this destructive ability.
As we progess upwards into larger shot size, this change occurs far more slowly until the actual size of the individual shot comes into play, but in all cases, the shot column at close range is basically the same and can cause teriffic damage to the human body.
Hope that none of this blood and guts splatters into my coffee. Cream or sugar gentlemen?
Don Jose de La Mancha
All, please read. Pay close attention to Dr Gary Roberts' (DocGKR) and Dr Martin Fackler's posts.
12 gauge shotgun loads for LE duty use - M4Carbine.net Forums
I beg of you all to look at this PDF. Please pay close attention to the penetration depth. If its not 12" to 18", we shouldn't even consider considering it, let alone actually choosing it. Keep in mind that the heart begins at least 2" from the chest, 4" to the center of the heart. Add clothing in front of this or a different angle, and what we have is an extremely gruesome flesh wound.
The videos that go along with the PDF above - http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_fi...ugeShotgun.htm
Here's a quote from the third link for the lazier members out there that don't feel like clicking on it themselves. :wink:
The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.
Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.
For an excellent article which explains it better than I could, please read "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition on firearmstactical.com.
The summary from that article states:
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.
Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.
While #1 buck might be ideal IF the the shot is hardened, the reality is that these loads might be hard to find. If finding hardened #1 proves elusive, 00 buck is a great choice instead.
I read it and agree that bird shot is not the choice for LE or military applications.
However, an ounce and an eighth of 6,7, or 8 fired into the belly of someone at close range, will get it done say within 5 yards or so, providing a tight choke.
Excellent post jon, my friend,.you earned yer coffee, However - I must disagree --- he hehe (my silly humor my friend, an excellent post)
Glock guy, as usual an excellent post.
DonnjOse La Mancha
Why should we consider our needs different from an officer on patrol? Sure, fired at close range into the belly is a bad thing, but modern training I'll also teach us to not fire into the belly, rather make as many hits as fast as we accurately are capable to center mass. Center mass may be the left side, depending on what part is exposed to us.
Why would we choose birdshot over buck, even with a tight choke? Why? What possible benefit is there is choosing birdshot? What does it do better than buckshot that would make it worth the trade off?
This question is directed to all that advocate any type of birdshot.
Well Jon, all I can say is birdshot did the job on the two I dusted off some years back when I caught them in my house. It didn't kill them, but it put one on his arse, and helped the other over the fence. And neither one wanted to stay around for long. But that's the only experience I have to draw from.
Certainly larger pellets would have been much more devastating. My shots were fired at close to 8 yards with a cylinder bore, and I got a decent spread at that range. But if I had a full choke, it may have been much worse for them.
In any event, it certainly stopped their activity.
My choice of bird shot in that incident was not intended. It was an accident. I fired 3 out of 5 shots in the gun. The last two were 00B.
For people living in very small apartments, with thin walls, it may be a concern for overpenetration. I don't advocate it, but I don't disagree with the thought process in these situations either.
Perfect. Wish I'd have been there for that one.
My point, that you seem to agree with, is that birdshot may work in a pinch, but certainly should not be used in a defense role, given the option. I see absolutely no reason ever to use birdshot.
I understand the overpenetration argument, but choose an at with OTM ammunition instead. Another day, another thread.
When it comes to overpenetration, I've yet to find one single example, ever, of it casing death. I've heard of negligent discharges causing death, and bullets that completely missed their target, but none due to overpenetration.
Here's what little I could find on overpenetration -
Good stuff. I'm not much of a shotgun expert, with respect to ballistics, at least not enough to give advice.
My thought has always been to go to buck for serious uses.
However, I don't know alot about it's penetration qualities.
But with the bird shot, it kinda reminds me of the forum debates over the use of the .22 for SD, in which I don't recommend it as an optimum choice, I can't imagine anyone enthusiastically attacking someone while getting perforated by a quick 5 or 15 to the body.
Another , although highly debatable argument that could be made for bird over buck is the much reduced recoil and control by someone who may not be an enthusiast, but want the shotty for the castle.
Sure, there are better reduced recoil choices, but they still have more recoil than the low brass bird.
But that's all great for forum discussion.
I for one feel like giving a cut shell a try. The problem is that I don't have a single or double barrel shotgun to shoot it out of, I'm going have to wait and borrow my Dad's next time I visit him.
It doesn't matter to me how old someone is, I've heard just as much crud come out of elders as youths. I'm not saying that any of those weapons can't kill/stop someone, but I am saying that the comparisons being made to a single pellet of 00 buck are ridiculous and grossly misleading.
Here's what I've read in this thread from one poster that I am disagreeing with:
1) A single 00 buck pellet (.33 cal, 54 gr, 1200 fps) is equivalent to a 9mm (.355 cal, 124 gr, 1100 fps) - not to mention projectile construction/materials
each time that you pull that trigger you are effectively sending 12 9 m/m projectiles down range at around the usual 9 m/m velocities. Beats a sub machinegun rate of fire with aces. A full load of 6 gives you 72 9/mm projectiles, beat that.
2) Racking a shotgun is a good idea
The psychological impact of simply racking the shotgun at night,
Only in a stake out is the noise inadviseable.
3) No training required for a SG
Another plus for the shotgun, no formal training as such needed,
4) No purpose for suppressing a SG
5) Also comparing a single 00 buck pellet to a .36 Navy Colt when the .36 ball is 50% heavier and is .375-.38 cal vs. .33 for the 00 buck
a single 00 at around 1200 fps is almost the same as the Navy colt .36,
6) Extending the comparison of 00 Buck from .36 Colt to the .44 Dragoon (141 gr projectile at 1000 fps) and then on to a 44 Mag (240 gr bullet @ 1500 fps)
The ole Navy colt was considered a good man stopper among the pistols available, which included perhaps the best of all, The ...44 Dragoon (Walker colt, almost equal to the present .44 magnum.)
Could someone please let me know where I am wrong on these counts?
Now, as to the PH's. I have researched and read and like I said, they all seemed to be carrying Nitro's and such. After the previously mentioned misleading information, why should I take that person's word on buckshot for lion given the ballistic testing provided by Dr. Roberts and in many states in the US it isn't even legal for deer hunting - a prey animal weighing in at say 200 lbs vs a 500 predator?
Also, while the 38-40 is a "ballistic twin" of the 40 S&W, to make comparisons is also a bit misleading due to the technological advances in bullet design. I think we can all agree that getting hit with a .40 HST round is a bit different than a .401 cal bal going the same speed.
All the talk of historic cartridges is fine, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with any of them, but let's get real: when it comes to HD/SD and both guns are on the table next to each other, are you gonna choose the 38-40 SA revolver over the G23?
Oh, and listening to my elders has cost me dearly in the past.
I might accept #8 as useable if I could guarantee all my shots would be within 5yds.
But I can't, and most any of you can't, either.