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Is a shotgun "useless"?

28K views 255 replies 55 participants last post by  Tayopo 
#1 ·
I was in a discussion with someone who mentioned that a shotgun is not a long gun of first choice. He would rather have a combat rifle. His reasoning was that you can put more ammo down range with a rifle (30 rounds vs. 6-7 of a shotgun), it is faster to reload, can carry more reloads, has a longer range, is lighter and more maneuverable. He also mentioned that if he had no other long gun, a shotgun would do, but his preference is a rifle.

Thoughts.
 
#237 ·
I......just......can't......take......any......more......!!!

Stop it. Just freakin' STOP IT...!
 
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#242 ·
I do too, as long as there's a mutual understanding that my way is the most correct way.
 
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#241 ·
I've got a stick for him....

Funny you should mention that shirt. We were at the ranch hunting for a few days and I had only taken two shirts besides to sleep in and they both got filthy due to my idiocy by the second morning. So, had to borrow one from a buddy who is about 4 sizes larger than I am.

Besides that, I don't care for that camo, it's the next worst thing to wearing a shotgun vest with the plaid on it.
 
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#245 ·
I know EVERYTHING about hardcast bullets and those handguns with that spinny thing in the middle. I just don't talk about it much.... :D

Varmint bullets for home defense? Off with their heads, say I. One could say it's fair to compare varmint 223 bullets for home defense with birdshot. It'll likely work, but we're risking it not working as quickly as something specifically designed for home defense.

These rounds will easily toss a groundhog a few feet in the air, end over end, because they dump all of their energy very, very early. What makes them great for small game is what makes them a poor choice for home defense. These bullets may only penetrate a few inches before losing all of their energy. In some cases, they may penetrate 8", which may be adequate, but since the minimum is 12" and the maximum is 18" for ideal penetration, I won't settle for less.

The way to think of it is this.... Heavy for fragmenting, lighter for barrier blind when fired from a shorter rifle and lighter or heavier barrier blind when fired in excess of 200 meters or on larger game.

We want heavy 5.56 when choosing an OTM bullet (TAP, MK262, other SMK's, etc.) because they yaw and fragment, essentially exploding. Think of an anti-personel grenade. We want more mass and larger fragments. The only way to get more/larger fragments is by more material. These heavy OTM bullets can be a great choice against soft targets.

Now, for a barrier blind load like Gold Dot, TSX (my choice for basically every single use I have for 5.56 now), Trophy Bonded Bear Claw XM556FBIT3, Winchester 62gr JSP RA556B, etc., the the primary wounding mechanism is expansion. This is not dependent on weight like fragmenting bullets. One of the best for defeating auto glass and still performing reliably on soft targets is the Black Hills TSX 50gr. It's also one of the better choices for short barreled rifles, giving maximum expansion from a 10.5" to distances that TAP would struggle from an 16".

The heavier barrier blind loads like the 70gr TSX offer better longer range performance and deeper penetration at those ranges, but are also great choices for close range work as well as performing optimally from short barreled rifles. There are many reports of 70gr TSX quickly dropping 350 to 400 pound hogs at distances in excess of 150 yards. Same foes for large deer. Take a look at the new military "Brown Tip". It's essentially a 70gr TSX and has proven extremely effective from 10.5" rifles to 18".

By all accounts, military, law enforcement, self defense and hunting bullets in 5.56 are moving towards barrier blind construction as they're proving themselves in all areas. What used to be reserved for 308 can often be handled now with 5.56 loaded with 70gr TSX, for example. Not all cases, but it's certainly overlapping much more than before.
 
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#248 ·
Sorry about that... Yes, I meant the ballistic tip. Any type of fragmenting ammo lighter than 69gr, preferably 75gr or 77gr, is not the best choice.

As far as the ammo like Gold Dot, TBBC, Winchester, etc., the 62gr (or very close) JSP is a great choice. We're not relying on fragmentation, so the lighter weight can be a benefit by giving higher velocities. The TSX comes in 50, 55, 62 and 70. All of these work well, but the 50gr and 70gr are the best choices in my opinion. But, there are teo different 50gr bullets. One is available for reloading and the other is the Black Hills 50gr. The Black Hills 50gr has more robust petals that won't sheer like the others, the only downside is that bullet is not available for reloading.

The Black Hills is one of the best bullets available for 0-200 meters, for use in SBR's and when intermediate barriers like auto glass and doors are a concern. It will perform better than most in those situations. The 70gr TSX, I prefer the 5.56 loading from Stan Chen, is better suited for hunting than the 50gr, though both will perform well. It's also a wise choice for longer ranges but will still perform extremely well from short rifles and close range. The bullet may not hold up as well as the more robust 50gr from Black Hills though when contacting auto glass, for example.

OTM loads like TAP and Mk262 are very poor performers after contacting auto glass or similar barriers.

The XM556FBIT3 used by the FBI is an amazing performer as well. It's expensive but worth it. There's a 223 version and a 5.56 version. I'd certainly opt for the 5.56 as the higher velocities give considerably better performance.
 
#249 ·
I've got a headache. Too much to know when it comes to 5.56 loads. :dead: And how the heck are you supposed to know ahead of time what you will encounter?

Ugh. I've got 60 gr Hornady .223 TAP loaded in my Mini 14. Mainly because it's what the store had. Hope it works. :smile:

With a shotgun, it's so much easier...buckshot. Any flavor. It works. :biggrin2:
 
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#252 ·
It's pretty simple for me... I k keep them loaded with Black Hills 50gr TSX. I used to use 75gr TAP, but prefer the barrier blind characteristics of TSX. I use 70gr TSX for hunting.

As a rule, working in structures, 75gr TAP or the 50gr TSX are great. Working around vehicles or other barriers, TSX is where it's at. The other stuff is good too, but I keep it simple and stick to these.

Once you people see what TSX does to soft tissue, even after a windshield or door, they're usually sold. The results are pretty spectacular.

So, I could get by with 50gr or 70gr TSX for everything. VERY SIMPLE.
 
#251 ·
Ladies & Gentlemen, this includes you jokers also. After coffee, let's get a few things settled ~~

I am a wolf in shotgun clothes. I have an old 10 gauge, muzzle loading, double barrel, shotgun which I used for a few seasons of Pheasant hunting, also my ole Winchester 97 Riot gun,. I probably have put perhaps 2 boxes of 00 through the 97 and maybe 5 lbs of black powder in the 10 gauge muzzle loader, so much for my shot gunning experience. (Cylinder bore naturally )

The Winchester 97 (cylinder bore also) sits by my bed, but when anything goes snap, pop, or crackle in the night and causes me to investigate, I always, instinctively, grab my S&W mod 28 .357.

I suppose this is because after years of sleeping with it - no we aren't legally married - and thousands of rounds through it under every condition imaginable, I have developed an affinity for it in that I 'know' where that bullet will go, day or night. Even in complete darkness. However I never shoot without identifying my potential target.

NO, I am not like that weird deer hunter that I once met in the field, who happily told me " naw, I haven't gotten a Deer yet, but I have had a few good sound shots where they were moving through the scrub Manzanita". Hmmm.

But, I have studied extensively, interior and external ballistics, and not too many things have changed in this part of Physics. The major advances lie almost exclusively in projectile construction, and powder. The rest is a take of off the auto manufactures spiel, new models of the same old thing in effect.

You want power in the cap & ball period? go to the Walker Colt, in the cartridge era, go to 45 70 in a pistol which was tested in the late 1800's. in other words most of our hi touted present day cartridges could, in practicality, be eliminated with no loss in effective cartridges or arms.
'
Shot guns haven't evolved that much in the conventional configuration, but yes, in the so called combat versions. They have 'reduced felt recoil', and possibly increasd rate of fire because of this. But, they have also irritated my esthetic appreciation of line and function. sigh. Perhaps I have lived to long.

Today, practically no-one appreciates a true old fashioned cold bluing and top wood work on a rifle / shotgun , snifff. Things that should be admired and loved in themselves, sorta like me ?? :redface::yup::yup:

Don Jose de la Mancha

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#253 ·
Sir, I couldn't agree with you more. There is nothing like handling and shooting a fine piece of gunmakers art. Just knowing that in a lot of cases these beauties were lovingly made by someones hands, by the light of a window so many years ago and being able to enjoy it for a while, then pass it on for the next generation to care for. In this day and age, gunmaking has become so much about the science, and so little about the art. Being and old school retired machinist myself, I always appreciate something that's finely crafted as opposed to stamped out clones rolling off an assembly line. There is so much whiz-bang technology out there today that it has left most people dazed, confused, and most of all, disappointed. I guess that's why a majority of my collection is old school...they have passed the test of time.:35:
 
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