Windham Weaponry Factory Tour - Page 2

Windham Weaponry Factory Tour

This is a discussion on Windham Weaponry Factory Tour within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by tubadude Feel better about yourself now? That's how these guys operate. They make snarky comments about your rifle and/or attack anyone that ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tubadude View Post
    Feel better about yourself now?
    That's how these guys operate. They make snarky comments about your rifle and/or attack anyone that doesn't buy one of their "chart" blessed brands. They'll continue with their non-sense until you either ignore them or they get the thread locked like they did on their home forum... I think they ran into trouble because they weren't just attacking the brand, they kept attacking me personally despite continued warnings from the moderators.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Outstanding quality? 6061T6 RE instead of 7075T6 hammer extruded and dry lube internally, commercial REs with much more slop than mil spec,
    How many commercial tubes have you broken? I already know the answer to that question. How do you know the WW has "slop" when by your own admission you've never fired one?

    1/9 twist
    Lots of people prefer 1:9 for non-military rifles, including people with more experience than you. 1:7 is fine but its also been shown 1:9 works just as well, if not better with 55gr and 62gr loads which are by far the most common in use by average shooters. If you want to stabilize a tracer, get the 1:7. Not everyone is a military operator that buys an AR15 in the civilian world. Ill also wager you've never sat down with a 1:9 rifle and a 1:7 rifle with a wide variety of ammo to compare them side by side, but I have. The end result? Nearly identical performace. Others have done the same and posted detailed results on AR15.com, they found the same thing I did to be true.

    FSB is not F marked
    Have you ever shot a M4 type rifle with a A2 front sight? Were you able to zero it? I have with several rifles including my Windham. A popular tactical gear website (that caters to law enforcement no less) reviewed the WW MPC and also noted they had no trouble zeroing their rifle and questioned all the hoopla over F marked rifles for ordinary use. Here's the article.

    Tactical Life WINDHAM WEAPONRY MPC 5.56mm

    castle nut is not staked
    Most of my ARs including my Colt M16 don't have the castle nut staked (I removed it). If properly torqued it will stay put indefinitely in my experience. I remove the staking on most every rifle because I wind up swapping stocks out. The military stakes them because they have no need to remove them and grunts tend to unscrew things out of boredom, so it makes sense to lock them down. If it bothers you and you like the stock on the rifle, stake your nut with a punch, it's not rocket science.

    instead of having to file down a set of handguards, perhaps they could buy from a more quality vendor that makes them to spec.
    Tell this to Colt, one of your "chart" approved brands. I have two Colt rifles with handguards that have slight ledges on them. The military doesn't care if there is a slight ledge.

    Using a pliers to bend and install a gas tube?
    He wasn't "bending" the gas tube, he was rotating it and/or moving it forward and back into place so the pin could be inserted. I hope this is just sensationalism and you really don't believe he was bending the tube.

    For less money than a Windham Weaponry rifle you can buy a Colt 6920 and have it made as close to mil spec as you can legally own without being NFA.
    Really, you can buy Colts for $799? Where? That's how much a MPC sells for which is the M4gery WW makes. Don't believe me? Jump on Google or go to Wal-Mart and actually handle the rifle you're bashing, they're usually sitting next to a Colt in the case. It's kind of hard to take someone's criticism seriously that has by their own admission no experience with the firearm in question.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    For those wondering what the difference is between a F marked front sight and a A2 front sight, here's a pic that shows you.

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  4. #19
    Member Array HardLuck682's Avatar
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    Windham Weaponry Factory Tour

    I didn't call you a retard, I made an analogy. I never said 'Mac, you're a retard'. Bus your fanboys did call me an idiot, and even used incorrect grammar and word usage in doing so.

    What I will say, which has been my point all along, is that you should say that this rifle is what it is, a target plinker, and not a duty rifle. I have fired a WW rifle, and found it to be over gassed, which can be alleviated with a heavier buffer installed. With that over pressure, the rifle is prone to more wear by the sheer force on the bolt. My experience may not be as vast as your 'thousands of rounds' through a WW rifle, but in 600 rounds I felt it wasn't for me. It was actually a buddy's rifle who was asking me to try it out, because it just 'felt different' than the DD carries daily. He bought this rifle for his wife who doesn't rely on it as a defensive weapon.
    All I'm saying is that this rifle is marketed towards a different crowd than those who depend on a weapon for defense. And that is what I wanted the general audience to understand.

    I have tact, but after 12 years in the Army Special Operations community, you tend to be a strait talker and call a spade a spade. I won't apologize for hurting anyone's feelings, it's not my style. I'll agree to disagree at this point, and go my way.



    ...sent from my mind, using telepathy!
    sammage and remington79 like this.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    I read no such analogy, you said in essence a "retard" would have the opinion I have on the rifles. There is absolutely no justification for an adult engaged in a civil conversation to make any "analogies" to mentally challenged people. It's offensive in general, especially to those that have handicapped people in their lives.

    As for the rifle not being duty worthy, it seems the author of the Tactical Life article above would disagree with you, and they cater to LEOs.

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, however yours is no more valuable than mine or Tactical Life's or anyone elses. You put 600 rounds through a buddy's rifle yet you make no mention of the rifle breaking, malfunctioning, or otherwise having any of the fatal flaws often bantered about with regards to "tier 2" rifles. You do claim it was over gassed which it may or may not have been. I've seen over gassed rifles from many manufacturers including from some on the infamous "chart".

    It's also worth noting the only people I see complaining about WW rifles and their lack of quality are those that don't own them, have never shot them or like you put a few rounds "through a buddy's". The owners seem to be quite pleased with their rifles and I've yet to see a bad review as well.
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  6. #21
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    I have never read a bad review in a hunting or gun magazine. With some of the items reviewed you'll often see a full page ad for the product else where in the magazine. The magazine doesn't want to lose money from advertisements.

    The problem with ARs/M4s is that people think they are all the same and built the same because they look alike. However, people know that a Kel Tec or High Point isn't the same quality of a Glock or Heckler and Koch and these don't look alike.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remington79 View Post
    I have never read a bad review in a hunting or gun magazine. With some of the items reviewed you'll often see a full page ad for the product else where in the magazine. The magazine doesn't want to lose money from advertisements.
    I'm not talking about gun rags, I'm talking about reviews from owners.

    The problem with ARs/M4s is that people think they are all the same and built the same because they look alike. However, people know that a Kel Tec or High Point isn't the same quality of a Glock or Heckler and Koch and these don't look alike.
    No, most people don't think they're all the same. What some people believe is that if it's not made by a brand listed on the "chart" it's automatically junk and should be disregarded. Again, point to any evidence you can find that WW rifles are failing their owners. All the "they're going to fall apart any moment now" concerns are based upon wild assumptions. Let's see some actual evidence they're poorly made that extends past the "I shot my buddies wife's rifle and it's over gassed" evidence.
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  8. #23
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    Windham Weaponry Factory Tour

    I will admit I am not LE, military, or even a self proclaimed guru, but I have been shooting ARs since I was legally able to own one. I also shoot competitively, and on occasion abuse my ARs like a $5 whore, just to see what happens.

    I have never even once seen a commercial tube break, or had an issue with a non F marked FSB, my non staked castle nuts don't come loose...

    I will venture to say 99.999999% of people, including guys in the military will never see the difference between a colt or WW. Grunts will break ANYTHING and everything, no matter how "mil spec" it is.

    The argument I see on every forum about this subjects is dumb. Us paper punching commandos do not need anything mil spec. That being said, if I either had no budget, or could get mil spec for commercial price, then why not? But for some $799 for a WW vs $999 for a colt is a huge difference. That is a 20% increase in cost for no perceived, or instantly noticeable difference in quality.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    I'm not talking about gun rags, I'm talking about reviews from owners.

    You were talking about a magazine review. Tactical Life's webpage looks like any other gun rag webpage.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remington79 View Post
    You were talking about a magazine review. Tactical Life's webpage looks like any other gun rag webpage.
    I thought you were responding to this comment:

    It's also worth noting the only people I see complaining about WW rifles and their lack of quality are those that don't own them, have never shot them or like you put a few rounds "through a buddy's". The owners seem to be quite pleased with their rifles and I've yet to see a bad review as well.
    ...and it's true, I've never seen a bad review of the rifles by their owners.

    I cited the Tactical Life article because it addressed the F marked front sight issue, not because it was a glowing review of the rifle. I also cited it because it was claimed the WW wasn't duty worthy yet a magazine dedicated to police officers believed that it was.
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  11. #26
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    If any of you folks want to critique the Video that is fine.

    MiliaryArms can post an honest factual follow-up rebuttal which he has historically always done on this forum without making it personal.

    His Video reviews have always been presented in a professional manner minus any Internet bravado or chest pounding.

    He has always offered up his critique and personal opinion without any "It's My Way Or The Highway" attitude.

    Any member that brings anything over here from another forum in the way of insults, goading, flaming, or making a personal attack against forum member MilitaryArms will immediately be shown the EXIT door.

    So...Please take this as a preemptive warning.

    Keep the comments ON the rifle and off of the OP & DO try to make sure that the rifle comments are at least halfway intelligent ones.

    And as soon as I read that anybody thinks that a staked on Castle Nut is a "Make Or Break" for a rifle purchase it pains me to continue reading their post.

    If it bothers you that much then take 1 Minute and 20 Seconds out of your busy life and stake the doggone thing on yourself.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    I see the M4C crowd came over here to pollute this thread after Tubby mentioned this forum in a thread over there.
    I'm not a member of M4C. You have your facts wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    How many commercial tubes have you broken? I already know the answer to that question. How do you know the WW has "slop" when by your own admission you've never fired one?
    Where have I admitted that I've never fired one? I would really like to see that since I never posted such statement.

    I've had 117 customers come to me with broken commercial tubes. The commercial tubes have slop because they are not in spec, to mil spec, and I've handled plenty of them. I've assembled close to 2,000 AR15 style weapons in my career so far. It's a known fact that commercial tubes have more slop and brea more readily than mil spec tubes.

    Lots of people prefer 1:9 for non-military rifles, including people with more experience than you.
    You don't know my experience, so that's a lost argument.

    1:7 is fine but its also been shown 1:9 works just as well, if not better with 55gr and 62gr loads which are by far the most common in use by average shooters. If you want to stabilize a tracer, get the 1:7. Not everyone is a military operator that buys an AR15 in the civilian world.
    Question to answer is if you want a hobby rifle or a quality rifle? An operator is someone that answers the phone when you dial 0. Military operator is a term of the uninformed.

    Ill also wager you've never sat down with a 1:9 rifle and a 1:7 rifle with a wide variety of ammo to compare them side by side, but I have. The end result? Nearly identical performace. Others have done the same and posted detailed results on AR15.com, they found the same thing I did to be true.
    I've got nearly a half million rounds downrange while developing my commercial ammunition ranging from 1/7 to 1/14 ROT. My findings are the 1/7 twist is superior.

    Have you ever shot a M4 type rifle with a A2 front sight? Were you able to zero it? I have with several rifles including my Windham. A popular tactical gear website (that caters to law enforcement no less) reviewed the WW MPC and also noted they had no trouble zeroing their rifle and questioned all the hoopla over F marked rifles for ordinary use. Here's the article.
    Yes I have sighted in with an M4 type using the incorrect A2 FSB. With some work, as usual, I was able to zero them. This however did not maintain proper POA/POI, as usual. That little fraction of an inch matters at distance and goes to show what corners are cut for the sake of a price point match. Look at your picture and note the quality difference between the Colt FSB and the other FSB. The Colt FSB is clearly more uniform in composition, thus higher quality. That FSB on the right looks like crap compared to the Colt.

    Most of my ARs including my Colt M16 don't have the castle nut staked (I removed it). If properly torqued it will stay put indefinitely in my experience. I remove the staking on most every rifle because I wind up swapping stocks out. The military stakes them because they have no need to remove them and grunts tend to unscrew things out of boredom, so it makes sense to lock them down. If it bothers you and you like the stock on the rifle, stake your nut with a punch, it's not rocket science.
    I've have many customers come in with end plates backing off because they weren't staked. This is a simple procedure, like you said, and isn't rocket science, yet most manufacturers skip this step. It's the basic assembly process. The reason it's staked is to prevent movement.


    Tell this to Colt, one of your "chart" approved brands. I have two Colt rifles with handguards that have slight ledges on them. The military doesn't care if there is a slight ledge.
    I've sold maybe 300 or so Colt rifles and none had HG ledges. Other brands, yikes!

    He wasn't "bending" the gas tube, he was rotating it and/or moving it forward and back into place so the pin could be inserted. I hope this is just sensationalism and you really don't believe he was bending the tube.
    Looked to me like bending. Either way, if you need a pliers to install a gas tube, it's either out of spec or you're a poor assembler that doesn't know what he's doing.

    Really, you can buy Colts for $799? Where? That's how much a MPC sells for which is the M4gery WW makes. Don't believe me? Jump on Google or go to Wal-Mart and actually handle the rifle you're bashing, they're usually sitting next to a Colt in the case. It's kind of hard to take someone's criticism seriously that has by their own admission no experience with the firearm in question.
    MSRP. You should be familiar with that. If the street price of a WW is $800, they're cutting corners plain and simple. I do have experience with the weapons in question. I make good money fixing them and bringing them up to spec to make them run reliably. No experience with the weapon in question? I've fixed dozens of WW weapons. Again, you lied. I have never admitted to the effect that I have no experience with WW weapons yet you insist I have done so. I'd like to see where you claim I have admitted to such.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    If any of you folks want to critique the Video that is fine.
    I'm critiquing the video content and the quality of the rifle in question. I'm also questioning the OP's definition of quality.

    Any member that brings anything over here from another forum
    Which I've been wrongfully accused of doing, from a forum I'm not a member of in the first place. I've also been wrongfully accused of making certain admissions, not factual, twice by the OP.

    And as soon as I read that anybody thinks that a staked on Castle Nut is a "Make Or Break" for a rifle purchase it pains me to continue reading their post.

    If it bothers you that much then take 1 Minute and 20 Seconds out of your busy life and stake the doggone thing on yourself.
    That's part of the point. A quality weapon will have assembly staff that does that at the factory. If you have to do it yourself because they failed to do their job and assemble an AR15 the way it is supposed to be, that isn't quality and that is the problem. That is what is being called into question. People fail to understand what quality is these days.
    remington79 likes this.
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  13. #28
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    As far as castle nuts not being staked at the factory, it would be a deal breaker for me. Call me silly and don't take me serious if you wish, but staking a castle nut is easy, and even though it can be done in a couple minutes at home, it shouldn't have to be unless your assembling your own. If a manufacturer doesn't stake castle nuts, which is the easiest part of assembling an ar and the least time consuming, I have to wonder where else they have cut corners.

    I also believe that using commercial spec receiver extensions is silly when you look at the real price difference between them and the mil spec variety. It's pennies on the dollar folks, for a receiver extension that will have much less slop, be sturdier, and will be able to accommodate a much larger variety of stocks.

    I may only be speaking for myself here, but my point is that for less than most peoples monthly fast food and cigarette budget, a stronger, sturdier, longer lasting, more durable weapon can be had, made with quality components from reputable manufacturers.
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    I always enjoy behind the scenes info, so thanks for the video.

    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    As for the rifle not being duty worthy, it seems the author of the Tactical Life article above would disagree with you, and they cater to LEOs.
    That can be a check mark in the 'pro' or 'con' column based on the LE you're speaking of. All deserve my utmost respect and I give it, but there are some that are clueless when it comes to weapons and they're are some that are gurus. Consider your public.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

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  15. #30
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    Well, if you look at the video full screen and in high resolution and freeze-frame you can see that the assembler is not physically bending the gas tube with pliers in order to get it into place. He is using a modified plier that will not mar or damage the gas tube in order to wiggle it into proper place.

    So can we at least take that criticism off the table? What I did not see was the gas tube being bent with pliers in order to make it fit into place.

    The Israeli made Galil is my personal "go to" firearm of choice & I don't have any skin in this game so I really have no reason to lie about that.

    Just as an added FYI my 5.56 early production Galil has a 1:12 twist rate and I sure do wish that it had a 1:9 since the 1:12 pretty much confines me to lighter weight bullets...not that THAT has anything much to do with this thread save for the fact that I think a 1:9 is a good generally functional compromise for multiple bullet weights.

    Also...Tubby: I stated that my warning was preemptive since I think all of our more seasoned members are already aware of what sort of road I do not want this thread to ultimately travel down. There are a couple of very low post count members commenting in this thread and they may (or may not) be "clued in" on our forum rules regarding civility toward fellow forum members.
    So if my warning does not apply to you then just ignore it since you have been here long enough and you know how to conduct yourself with regard to our forum rules.
    PEACE, LOVE, & Woodstock.

    I love an intelligent debate and feel free to debate and present personal opinions on the rifle.
    Folks can even chime in and have a never ending discussion on the topic of staked VS unstaked castle nuts and if an unstaked castle nut should automatically relegate every rifle with an unstaked castle nut into the trash can as being a piece of garbage...if that is what they want to do.
    Personally I don't know why all manufacturers do not just add one of those super thin spring steel domed lock washers and eliminate the need to stake it on at all.

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