Windham Weaponry Factory Tour

This is a discussion on Windham Weaponry Factory Tour within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by MilitaryArms So this is a general statement about any number of commercial tubes, that or you're making reference to the diameter differences. ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    So this is a general statement about any number of commercial tubes, that or you're making reference to the diameter differences. The commercial tube will be a few thousands thicker, so if anything it fits milspec stocks more tightly. If you're talking about commercial tubes having variances, this is probably true since they come from countless difference sources. What you haven't proven is that WW tubes are either sloppy or poorly made.
    General statement about commercial tubes collectively. WW uses commercial tubes, which are well known for being sloppy in stocks, even in commercial stocks.


    I would *love* to see that data. I've seen two other tests that show no measurable differences between the two with 55gr and 62gr bullets. If you have something proving the contrary, I would love to publish it for others to see.
    My test has data from 35gr to 90gr jacketed bullets and every commercially available cast bullet mould I could find that would fit and function in an AR15 magazine. I thought about organizing the data in a more presentable format and making it available to the public, but I've got other priorities. I will say this: the old wive's tale about lead bullets in AR15s plugging up the gas port is complete poop.

    At what range do you see the shift of POI/POA? 300 yards? 400 yards? 500 yards?
    Depends on the ammunition used and how much coffee I had that morning.

    I suspect your customers have loosened their castle nuts. I've never seen a properly seated nut back off -- ever. None of my rifles have them staked these days because I remove the staking to swap stocks out and I've never seen one back off. If it did, I would restake it. At 40 inch/lbs of torque it's not coming off.
    That may be the case in some, but I've been on ranges where the castle nut has loosened. Your quoted torque spec unit is wrong. That was a misprint in the TM and was later corrected.


    ...and you checked every one for slight ledges. Uh-huh. I'm having a hard time swallowing that particular pill.
    I thoroughly inspect each weapon I bring in before it's put on the shelf for sale. I wouldn't expect anything less from a dealer I buy a firearm from.

    I guess that's why Brownells sells this tool, because it's only used by poor assemblers? Curious.

    AR-15/M16/AR-STYLE .308 GAS TUBE WRENCH | Brownells

    So they modified a set of pliers to do the same thing, I fail to see the issue here.
    Brownells sells a lot of tools that aren't necessary for gunsmithing jobs. Lee Precision also sells trimming tools for pistol brass, though it is entirely unnecessary. Brownells main objective is to make a profit by selling tools and equipment for gunsmiths. Key word being profit. If they can sell something and make money doing it, they will. It doesn't have to be necessary, but that's the job of the marketing department.

    What do I use to install or remove the gas tube on ARs? My hands. Never ruined a gas tube.

    I'm quite familiar with MSRP. I also know that Windham rifles sell for $799 and Colts sell for $1,100 on the street, a concept you should be acutely aware of being "in the business".
    Colt 6920 street price is $1,050 (though I sell them for $999). There's a $251 difference between a quality weapon and a hobby weapon. Would you rather buy a weapon from the same company that make/made the US military's weapons 50+ years or from a company doing it for half that time for the civilian world?

    I didn't lie, I made a mistake given the nearly verbatim post you made both in content and in structure to a M4C post. That post was made by a guy who has been following me from M4C to other forums and my channel making the same comments. For me to *lie* I would have to tell an untruth intentionally, at least according to the dictionary.

    I apologize if the M4C poster isn't you.
    I'll give you that. I apologize for jumping your stuff about that. I don't like being accused of something not factual.
    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    I grabbed 3 Colt rifles to re-inspect and sure enough, each had slight ledges. So I grabbed a sample rifle, a LE6920, and took some pics.



    As you can see not only does a ledge exist, but it also has a slight molding flaw in the lower handguard. I have a very hard time believing 300 rifles were sold and each one inspected for slight ledges on the handguard (why would you even check for this?) and none of them had the same ledges present in this image.
    Interesting. Maybe someone's first day on the job? HG fit and finish is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, so I'll concede it's a moot point. Unless it's the end cap to HG fit like the atrocious pics of PSA rifles circulating the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by los View Post
    Funny, there are reports hitting a few AR forums (M4 included) regarding Colt rifles inadvertently being shipped with unstaked gas keys.

    just saying...
    Never said Colt was perfect. Mistakes happen with every company. With quality we are discussing the every day process of the manufacturer. In reality, staking is one of the easiest things to do when assembling an AR15. It's not life changing to do it if it isn't done, but it speaks loudly when a company refuses to include this on their weapons SOP for assembly. That's the corner cutting that lesser quality companies make to get products out the door.
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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    MAC,
    Let me preface this by saying I watch your vids all the time, and enjoy them. I guess I am simply curious about what has turned you on to Windham Weaponry so very completely? They seem like decently made guns at an "OK" price point. This isn't meant as criticism, but your staunch defense of this company has simply made me curious about them.
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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    MAC,
    Let me preface this by saying I watch your vids all the time, and enjoy them. I guess I am simply curious about what has turned you on to Windham Weaponry so very completely? They seem like decently made guns at an "OK" price point. This isn't meant as criticism, but your staunch defense of this company has simply made me curious about them.
    I'm not defending the company as much as I am my opinion. When folks coming my thread and tell me my observations of product are false, I post rebuttals. If this were a thread about LWRC, Colt, Daniels Defense, or any other product I've had good experiences with I would do the same... it just so happens that this thread is about WW.

    You have two camps in all of this, one that thinks WW rifles are junk and only a few rounds away from catastrophic failure and then you have me and others who own the rifles who have had good experiences with their products. I don't think WW is in the same league as Colt, BCM or Daniels Defense and that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm saying is that for the money ($799) you will likely find the WW rifle to be a great value if you can't afford that Colt, Daniels Defense, LWRC, LMT, Noveske, etc. I believe the WW will serve the average AR buyer quite well in my hands on experience of the rifles. The overall finish of my WW's great, even nicer than my Colts which have mis-matched uppers and lowers on some, boogie marks on others that were on them right out of the box, etc. Every WW rifle I've inspected has had a dark, deep and durable black oxide finish that's held up well even to me slipping with a flat head screw driver while mounting an optic. No, they're not 100% mil-spec, but a rifle doesn't need to be to be a good rifle for the average AR shooter.

    I have two WW's in my collection and my cameraman has one. We shoot them regularly with everything from Wolf .223 to Federal XM193 and I've yet to have a malfunction after thousands of rounds. I plan to pick up one of their varmint rifles here soon to try out as well. Folks have been getting sub-MOA groups out of them and I want to see what it can in fact do with me behind the trigger. I also buy rifles to rip them apart to install various things I'm testing out. It's financially easier for me to justify doing that to an $800 rifle vs. a $1,100 rifle. In the case of my MPC it will have an Osprey gas system installed here shortly for me to start evaluating.
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    General statement about commercial tubes collectively. WW uses commercial tubes, which are well known for being sloppy in stocks, even in commercial stocks.
    That may be true as a collective statement, however I've not found that to be true of the WW rifles I own. However, I will say if a commercial stock is sloppy on a commercial tube, put a mil-spec stock on it as it will likely take the slop out.

    My test has data from 35gr to 90gr jacketed bullets and every commercially available cast bullet mould I could find that would fit and function in an AR15 magazine. I thought about organizing the data in a more presentable format and making it available to the public, but I've got other priorities. I will say this: the old wive's tale about lead bullets in AR15s plugging up the gas port is complete poop.
    If you would like to share the raw data with me, I can organize it and publish it.


    Depends on the ammunition used and how much coffee I had that morning.
    I'm not sure I understand how coffee can alter the functionality of your front sight post. (just razzing you)

    That may be the case in some, but I've been on ranges where the castle nut has loosened. Your quoted torque spec unit is wrong. That was a misprint in the TM and was later corrected.
    I'm aware of my typo, I'm not perfect and do mistype things occasionally. The mistake has already been pointed out.

    I thoroughly inspect each weapon I bring in before it's put on the shelf for sale. I wouldn't expect anything less from a dealer I buy a firearm from.
    I have checked my Colt's and found all of them to have such ledges which seems to indicate to me their existence is more than coincidence. Perhaps you weren't looking for such minor details of fit. I suspect if you inspect future rifles you'll find those minor ledges exist. I'll hit my gun shop this weekend and go through their inventory as well just out of curiosity.

    What do I use to install or remove the gas tube on ARs? My hands. Never ruined a gas tube.
    I do too, but then I don't install hundreds of them a day. Believe it or not, handling such small diameter parts throughout the day can cause problems and discomfort for folks doing assembly. I suspect that's why tools are used.

    Colt 6920 street price is $1,050 (though I sell them for $999). There's a $251 difference between a quality weapon and a hobby weapon. Would you rather buy a weapon from the same company that make/made the US military's weapons 50+ years or from a company doing it for half that time for the civilian world?
    The last time I saw Colts sold for less than $1000 I posted a video saying it was the best buy on AR's out there and sending people to the source, Cheaper than Dirt. Soon there after Cheaper than Dirt sold out of them and was contacted by Colt about their pricing. They were told they would receive no future shipments if they continued to sell the rifles at that price. They now sell them for around $1,100 like everyone else I see including Wal-Mart.

    I'll give you that. I apologize for jumping your stuff about that. I don't like being accused of something not factual.
    It's my fault for making assumptions, I take full responsibility and again apologize.

    Interesting. Maybe someone's first day on the job? HG fit and finish is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, so I'll concede it's a moot point. Unless it's the end cap to HG fit like the atrocious pics of PSA rifles circulating the forums.
    It really is a moot point because I've never heard of someone complaining about minor ledges on their handguards. It's for that reason I was somewhat surprised that the guys at WW were taking the time to make such minor adjustments to something most people including myself probably rarely notice. Those ledges never bothered me on my Colt's before seeing that done...

    Never said Colt was perfect. Mistakes happen with every company. With quality we are discussing the every day process of the manufacturer. In reality, staking is one of the easiest things to do when assembling an AR15. It's not life changing to do it if it isn't done, but it speaks loudly when a company refuses to include this on their weapons SOP for assembly. That's the corner cutting that lesser quality companies make to get products out the door.
    Colt is far from perfect, I can post some pics later (I have to dig the gun out of the back of the safe) of a Colt rifle that has atrocious upper/lower fit. But I also have Colt's that fit perfectly. More importantly, despite the fit issues with the Colt in question it still runs flawlessly and has for a couple of decades.
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    After watching the video I have some respect for Windham Weaponry, whether their AR's are for military use or not doesn't really concern me personally. I recently purchased a DPMS because they were started in Minnesota and continue to produce them here, that was a pretty big part of my decision to buy one, they employ local people and bring money to the state. I guess that may be part of the impact that Windham has on me, I respect the story and that the majority of workers are there because someone cared enough not to let the factory sit empty.

    I think sometimes people get a little too caught up in specs and should spend more time actually enjoying their firearm at the range, where it counts. Pumping your chest that brand X rules is great and all, but I think any brand of AR from a reputable source is going to be more than enough for civilian use, or keeping your safe space occupied.

    Just my thoughts, and again - thanks for sharing the video, kind of sad that this thread got so poorly derailed.
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  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    After watching the video I have some respect for Windham Weaponry, whether their AR's are for military use or not doesn't really concern me personally. I recently purchased a DPMS because they were started in Minnesota and continue to produce them here, that was a pretty big part of my decision to buy one, they employ local people and bring money to the state. I guess that may be part of the impact that Windham has on me, I respect the story and that the majority of workers are there because someone cared enough not to let the factory sit empty.

    I think sometimes people get a little too caught up in specs and should spend more time actually enjoying their firearm at the range, where it counts. Pumping your chest that brand X rules is great and all, but I think any brand of AR from a reputable source is going to be more than enough for civilian use, or keeping your safe space occupied.

    Just my thoughts, and again - thanks for sharing the video, kind of sad that this thread got so poorly derailed.

    How dare you speak of DPMS on this forum. Don't you know DPMS rifles are junk and will fail you in your time of need even though you have put 1000's of failure free rounds down range? Please understand this is complete sarcasm.
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  8. #52
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Windham Weaponry Factory Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    I think sometimes people get a little too caught up in specs and should spend more time actually enjoying their firearm at the range, where it counts. Pumping your chest that brand X rules is great and all, but I think any brand of AR from a reputable source is going to be more than enough for civilian use, or keeping your safe space occupied.
    In all due respect, when I spend $1,000-4,000 on something, you better believe I get "caught up in specs". Regardless of my occupation, I try to diligently spend my money. Especially when the amount in question is in the thousands. It's a weapon first and foremost; my life may depend on it one day. Slaying paper and steel is secondary.

    And the aforementioned specs are there for a reason. More R&D and knowledge was put into the carbine than we can fathom, so IMO the TDP is a damn good metric by which to measure when purchasing.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    Yeah, black o-ring vs blue o-ring... detrimental, I understand - I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, just expressing mine.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Yeah, black o-ring vs blue o-ring... detrimental, I understand - I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, just expressing mine.
    Well it's troglodytes like you who are causing all of these problems!!! If you would just get with the times man!!!


    OK, maybe not. : )
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  11. #55
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Just my thoughts, and again - thanks for sharing the video, kind of sad that this thread got so poorly derailed.
    What's funny is that I kind of expected the derailment on some forums. Take AR15.com as an example, I fully expected the "if it isn't mil-spec it's not ****" crowd to quickly derail the thread, but they didn't. I knew if the video was posted on M4C that it would, with the first post, turn to a discussion about how non-mil-spec rifles will blow up soon after being fired -- and it did. I wasn't really expecting it here, but stranger things have happened.

    Some falsely believe every single aspect of mil-spec must be followed to have a reliable rifle. Certain things should be followed such as staked gas keys, a minimum of carpenters 158 steel used in the bolt construction (better materials do exist), etc. However there are countless rifles made by companies like Stag, Rock River, PSA, WW, S&W, etc. out there giving trouble free service in police patrol cars and in the hands of contractors like those employed by Academi. To think you need a Colt, LWRC, Daniels Defense, BCM, etc. to "bet your life on" is a bit misguided in my experience. If you can afford more, buy something more expensive. However if you're like many Americans and are constrained by budget, know that good alternatives to the $1500-$2500 rifles exist out there. They can be upgraded over time if you feel the need or they will give good service right out of the box.

    Anyway, as noted this is going in circles so I'll sit back and lurk for a while.

    Thanks everyone for the spirited conversation.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    What's funny is that I kind of expected the derailment on some forums. Take AR15.com as an example, I fully expected the "if it isn't mil-spec it's not ****" crowd to quickly derail the thread, but they didn't. I knew if the video was posted on M4C that it would, with the first post, turn to a discussion about how non-mil-spec rifles will blow up soon after being fired -- and it did. I wasn't really expecting it here, but stranger things have happened.

    Some falsely believe every single aspect of mil-spec must be followed to have a reliable rifle. Certain things should be followed such as staked gas keys, a minimum of carpenters 158 steel used in the bolt construction (better materials do exist), etc. However there are countless rifles made by companies like Stag, Rock River, PSA, WW, S&W, etc. out there giving trouble free service in police patrol cars and in the hands of contractors like those employed by Academi. To think you need a Colt, LWRC, Daniels Defense, BCM, etc. to "bet your life on" is a bit misguided in my experience. If you can afford more, buy something more expensive. However if you're like many Americans and are constrained by budget, know that good alternatives to the $1500-$2500 rifles exist out there. They can be upgraded over time if you feel the need or they will give good service right out of the box.

    Anyway, as noted this is going in circles so I'll sit back and lurk for a while.

    Thanks everyone for the spirited conversation.
    You make good videos MAC. Keep it up. We (as in all of us) don't always have to agree.

    And by the way, those Noveske girls looked a little rough around the edges to me.

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array MilitaryArms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    You make good videos MAC. Keep it up. We (as in all of us) don't always have to agree.
    I welcome disagreement, I know people won't always agree... heck, they couldn't even get Congress to agree to declare war after the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor. People will always have differing opinions, and anything I say in video is just that - my opinion. My opinion certainly isn't any more valuable than yours or anyone elses... and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

    And by the way, those Noveske girls looked a little rough around the edges to me.
    I thought the girl that opened the video was looking ok... perhaps I should get my prescription checked.
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  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryArms View Post
    I thought the girl that opened the video was looking ok... perhaps I should get my prescription checked.
    Yes she does look good. She just looks like too much of a party girl for me.

    Just to clarify, when I was younger she appears to be just the type of girl I'd like to run into on a Friday night. Now that I have a daughter, the tattoos and tank top make me cringe.

    And yes I do understand that my opinion makes me, in some way, a hypocrite.

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    At least we never have to worry about atctimmy ever tossing a rifle thread off topic by talking about girls w/ tattoos and tank tops.

  16. #60
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    Now I have to go back and look for these girls, I must be getting old.

    Edit:
    Never mind, different video. I can hang on to my man card a little longer, whew.
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