Let's talk about the Beneli M4 vs the 870 Tactical shotguns.

This is a discussion on Let's talk about the Beneli M4 vs the 870 Tactical shotguns. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Regarding the buck-to-slug transition...there are a couple different ways to do it. With a pump gun, I would depress the bolt release, and rack the ...

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Thread: Let's talk about the Beneli M4 vs the 870 Tactical shotguns.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Regarding the buck-to-slug transition...there are a couple different ways to do it.

    With a pump gun, I would depress the bolt release, and rack the slide back, ejecting the chambered shell. The next shell would release from the mag tube - that would have to be rolled out. Then, insert slug into chamber, push slide forward, and fire.

    With most semi autos, you need to add a step - pushing the manual bolt catch to lock the bolt open. You can try holding the bolt open, but it is tricky. The bolt will not stay locked back unless the mag tube is empty. This is why it is generally considered a bit easier to do the transition with a pump, compared to a semi auto.

    Now, this is a general statement. I'm sure some semi autos will run differently and I'm not personally familiar with all of them.

    Bottom line is that a pump is much less expensive than a semi auto, and while the semi auto might be "better" overall, the question is...is it worth 3 to 8 times the cost?
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Regarding the buck-to-slug transition...there are a couple different ways to do it.

    With a pump gun, I would depress the bolt release, and rack the slide back, ejecting the chambered shell. The next shell would release from the mag tube - that would have to be rolled out. Then, insert slug into chamber, push slide forward, and fire.
    True, there are other ways, but that way is pretty complicated too, sometimes the round doesn't roll out so easily, and you have to roll the shotgun over.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ,,,With most semi autos, you need to add a step - pushing the manual bolt catch to lock the bolt open. You can try holding the bolt open, but it is tricky. The bolt will not stay locked back unless the mag tube is empty. This is why it is generally considered a bit easier to do the transition with a pump, compared to a semi auto.
    I don't think it would necessitate an additional step??? Once the bolt has been pulled rearward with the right hand, it can be held there while a round is loaded into the chamber with the left hand.

    Not saying anything is a show stopper, and my comment(s) are more to the general notion that a pump is always simpler to operate than a semi.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Bottom line is that a pump is much less expensive than a semi auto, and while the semi auto might be "better" overall, the question is...is it worth 3 to 8 times the cost?
    That is true, although I think that 8 times may be a comparison to a entry level pump compared to a top end semi. But even with comparable comparisons, the semis do cost more. Of course that's the Glock for $500 vs a 1911 for $2000.

    The only thing I can see that might balance out the cost is the fact that it may be a life-saving gun. A pump takes more training - you have to remember to pull the trigger and stroke immediately. The semi only requires pulling the trigger. Plus, the pump introduces the possibility of short stroking and that's a mess. I've seen that too many times - even people forgetting to stroke the pump at all. I've also noticed that sweaty hands can cause gripping problems when pulling slide rearward.

    But that goes away to a large degree as training/practice increases.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Trying to do a slug transition with a semi auto with your left hand, while holding the bolt to the rear with the right hand can be done, but "it ain't easy." It is much easier to do, if you lock the bolt open, and then do the shell swap. Presumably, if you are going to slug, then the threat is not on top of you.

    Like I said, this is one area where the pump is a bit easier to work with. I agree with you that the semi auto has advantages - it just boils down to whether they are worth the additional cost. Personally, I've been really tempted by the Mossberg 930 SPX - but given that my wife will never train with a shotgun, I've recently made my Mini 14 my go-to HD long gun...so it's become a moot issue in our house.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array VBVAGUY's Avatar
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    They are both great shotguns. I also believe that our military uses both. God Bless

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Trying to do a slug transition with a semi auto with your left hand, while holding the bolt to the rear with the right hand can be done, but "it ain't easy."
    Loading a round directly into the chamber with the left hand is a commonly taught technique, so the left hand loading isn't a problem. I can only speak for the Benelli semi, but on the Benelli semi, all you have to do is pull the bolt back and press up on the loading gate. That locks the bolt open - you don't have to hold the bolt or anything else. The only way to get the bolt to release is to press the loading gate down and the shell does that as you load it. So the technique is push up on the loading gate, pull the bolt to the rear, the bolt will lock open and both hands are now free. It's simple and straightforward - shove the round in and the bolt slams shut.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Presumably, if you are going to slug, then the threat is not on top of you.
    Wouldn't the same thing apply going to 00?

    This may be worth a video to demonstrate the pump and semi transition. I think the semi will be easier and faster than the pump.

    I don't necessarily agree it's just money. The semi is simpler to pull the trigger and pull it again to shoot again than to pull the trigger and rack the slide being sure not to short stroke it. So for people that have little training, racking the slide after each shot doesn't come naturally, pulling the trigger again does.
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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    It sounds like you might be talking yourself into the semi, Tangle. ;-)

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    Kinda sounds like when I taught the MSF courses and demonstrated my one piece riding suit. People asked, "but, how much does it cost?" My response was always "a lot less than a trip to the ER and a stay on the burn ward."

    Buckshot is a $1/round + ...

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Yea, it's probably a case of six o'one; half-dozen o'the other. The most fool-proof way to do a slug transition is to simply feed the slug into the mag tube and then work the action. In which case, pump or semi auto wouldn't make much difference. For folks who like to dump the slug in through the ejection port, I still feel the pump is a bit easier.

    If you've got the cash, then get the M4. Must be used by the military for a reason...
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  10. #24
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    Assuming there's no plug in the (5 or 8 shot) magazine, as for hunting purposes, why not just load one less in the mag, load the slug (if needed) into the mag and cycle the action. You won't need more than one shot with a shotgun anyway, "it cuts people in half".

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Assuming there's no plug in the (5 or 8 shot) magazine, as for hunting purposes, why not just load one less in the mag, load the slug (if needed) into the mag and cycle the action. You won't need more than one shot with a shotgun anyway, "it cuts people in half".
    You could do that, but it's not generally taught to load one less round in a tactical shotgun. Plus you still have to insert the round into the magazine - which requires inserting the round from the bottom of the shotgun or rotating the gun so the loading port is up, then depress the bolt release, and rack the slide. With a Benelli, you pull the bolt rearward and push a round in the ejection port. Which sounds easier?

    I've never heard of a shotguns cutting a person in half. Nine pellet 00 buck spreads about 1" per yard. It simply, but effectively produces nine .33 caliber wounds - that can be devastating certainly, but it doesn't cut people in half.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    It sounds like you might be talking yourself into the semi, Tangle. ;-)
    LOL - it does, doesn't it.

    Actually I'm still evaluating pros and cons. The truth is, I really like the Remington Versa Max Tactical but it has a 22" barrel. The Remington R12 with the 18" barrel is the one I really want but I don't think it's available yet, and there's some thinking that it will only be available to the LE and military. Others think that to keep up with competition, they will make it available to the public. I hope so.

    In the mean time, I updated my Scattergun Technology 870 (Wilson bought them). I ordered a Surefire 618LMG 6V LED Forend WeaponLight to replace the older style forend with incandescent light, and a Mesa Tactical Urbino Stock with Limbsaver Buttpad (pistol grip) to replace the existing stock.

    I also ordered a dvd, "Magpul Art of Dynamic Shotgun DVD" (Set of 3) to add to my DVD shotgun library which only consists of one DVD - Blackwater's "Tactical Shotgun". What a great DVD. It looks like the guy is shooting a semi, but it's an 870.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    You could do that, but it's not generally taught to load one less round in a tactical shotgun. Plus you still have to insert the round into the magazine - which requires inserting the round from the bottom of the shotgun or rotating the gun so the loading port is up, then depress the bolt release, and rack the slide. With a Benelli, you pull the bolt rearward and push a round in the ejection port. Which sounds easier?

    I've never heard of a shotguns cutting a person in half. Nine pellet 00 buck spreads about 1" per yard. It simply, but effectively produces nine .33 caliber wounds - that can be devastating certainly, but it doesn't cut people in half.
    Most folks keep their shotguns "cruiser ready" - full mag tube, chamber empty. When you chamber the first shell, you will then have room in the mag tube to do the slug transition that way, if you wish.

    I think the "cutting in half" comment was in jest - hence the You know, like the "you don't need to aim a shotgun" myth...
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Most folks keep their shotguns "cruiser ready" - full mag tube, chamber empty. When you chamber the first shell, you will then have room in the mag tube to do the slug transition that way, if you wish.
    I do that just to relieve the mag spring stress, but as soon as the need arises, I would probably add that last round.

    Still you make a good point. And, and given there is room in the mag tube the technique for switching to a slug is less complicated for the pump than if it had a full mag, but the Benilli semi, at least the M2, gains no advantage from the condition of the mag - the swap is exactly the same for a full or partially loaded mag - just pull the bolt fully rearward, release it about a quarter of an inch to lock the bolt open, and slap in a round. The same for a full or partially loaded mag.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...I think the "cutting in half" comment was in jest - hence the You know, like the "you don't need to aim a shotgun" myth...
    LOL - true enough. Although sometimes it's hard to tell the jest from the rest - but that being the case, my apologies for misunderstanding.
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  15. #29
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    But a semi shotgun is missing the most important part, the sound of the pump action cycling a round into the chamber!!!!!!

    We all know that the Klack-klack sound that a pump action makes as a round is being chambered, is so fear educing that Bad guys wet their pants and call 911 to turn themselves in so they won't get blown into teeny tiny bits.

    I once was hunting deer with my Mossberg 500 and when I chambered a slug, a deer appeared out of the woods, hopped into my truck and drove to my house skinned and butchered himself and then place himself in my freezer.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    but a semi shotgun is missing the most important part, the sound of the pump action cycling a round into the chamber!!!!!!

    We all know that the klack-klack sound that a pump action makes as a round is being chambered, is so fear educing that bad guys wet their pants and call 911 to turn themselves in so they won't get blown into teeny tiny bits.
    Whew - wiping laughter tears from my eyes - I needed that!

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    I once was hunting deer with my mossberg 500 and when i chambered a slug a deer appeared out of the woods, hopped into my truck and drove to my house skinned and butchered himself and then place himself in my freezer.
    I like the way you hunt! I wonder if that would work for fishing too???
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