OK then, let's talk about the Benelli M2 Tactical and the M4 Tactical - Page 2

OK then, let's talk about the Benelli M2 Tactical and the M4 Tactical

This is a discussion on OK then, let's talk about the Benelli M2 Tactical and the M4 Tactical within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hmmm, some points about weight. The M4 weighs 7.8 lbs; the Remington 870 Express Tactical pump weighs 7.5 lbs - less than 4% lighter than ...

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  1. #16
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Hmmm, some points about weight.

    The M4 weighs 7.8 lbs; the Remington 870 Express Tactical pump weighs 7.5 lbs - less than 4% lighter than the M4. A typical AR carbine weighs about 6.85 lbs unless it's a piston version which puts the weight up to about 7.3 lbs. However, a Benelli M2 only weighs about 6.7 lbs, so it is lighter than the M4 but only by about 13%.

    870's with an extended mag tube, sidesaddle, and forend with light, e.g. Wilson Combat's Standard tactical shotgun, weighs in at about 8.6 lbs and that's pretty much the standard setup for a tactical shotgun and that weight is pretty well accepted.

    The value of weight is softer recoil. I have an M2 Tactical (6.7 lbs) and it has a harsh, hard recoil. I know, because I shot 20 rounds of low recoil 00 and 10 rounds of slugs through it and had a sore shoulder for a day or so - and I know how to mount and shoot a shotgun.

    Then I took my 870 tactical, essentially a Wilson Combat Standard model, about 8.6 lbs and shot the same 20 and 10 rounds through it as I did through the M2 and then 25 more rounds of #7.5 shot after that for a total of 55 rounds - the recoil was mild - no sore shoulder.

    Weight is a two-edged sword. Heavier is more to carry of course, but easier on the shoulder and faster on follow-up shots. Lighter is less to carry, but hard on the shoulder and is slower on followup shots.

    So if you carry little and shoot a lot, like I do, the heavier is a definite advantage. If you carry a shotgun a lot and don't shoot it much, then lighter might be better.

    I'll be shooting my Benelli M4 for the first time today and report back what I find.

    Plus, the M4 is a bit more than just heavy and expensive. I believe it is parkerized and hardened in some other ways that I can't recall now. Also, and I'll have to confirm this, I believe M4's will cycle lighter loads than M2's. I base this on the fact that the Benelli spec sheet for the M2 has a minimum recommended load, and the M4 does not. Of course that's only an indicator and doesn't mean the M4 will shoot a lighter load. But again, the heavier weight of the M4 should help it shoot a lighter load.

    The M2 tactical and M4 both come stock as 5+1 guns and extension tubes are available for both, plus unique quick detach side saddles with capacities of 4, 5, 6, & 8 rounds, are available for the M4. And full length rails are available for M4s.
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  2. #17
    New Member Array cnel124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Hmmm, some points about weight.

    The value of weight is softer recoil. I have an M2 Tactical (6.7 lbs) and it has a harsh, hard recoil. I know, because I shot 20 rounds of low recoil 00 and 10 rounds of slugs through it and had a sore shoulder for a day or so - and I know how to mount and shoot a shotgun.

    Weight is a two-edged sword. Heavier is more to carry of course, but easier on the shoulder and faster on follow-up shots. Lighter is less to carry, but hard on the shoulder and is slower on followup shots.

    Plus, the M4 is a bit more than just heavy and expensive. I believe it is parkerized and hardened in some other ways that I can't recall now. Also, and I'll have to confirm this, I believe M4's will cycle lighter loads than M2's. I base this on the fact that the Benelli spec sheet for the M2 has a minimum recommended load, and the M4 does not. Of course that's only an indicator and doesn't mean the M4 will shoot a lighter load. But again, the heavier weight of the M4 should help it shoot a lighter load.
    In the summer of 2014 I weighed under 120 pounds and under 5 foot 6 and I had no sore shoulder from shooting over 200 slugs through my benelli M2 tactical for the first time, compared to my first shooting of 3 and half inch slugs through a remington 870 the summer previous. Harsh recoil? Should you even be shooting shotguns?

    Faster follow up shots, but can you as quickly get that gun up to fire the first round. Grizzlies and Black bears are a common threat along with a little moose where I come from (if you are in the situations which they are around), the first shot is most important. Can't hit the target, might as well not even shoot.

    Yeah I agree, my M2 had a couple issues when breaking it in with light loads, like remington birdshot. It wouldn't cycle, but now that its broken in it usually isn't an issue with some exceptions.

    Never shot an M4, but I really want one, no point in having lots of rails since you shoot at relatively close range with shotguns anyway so not sure what kind of optics you need. My M2 has a mag extension, 8 shot side saddle, and a flashlight. Keep it light, for defines buckshot and slugs are what you need. Keep the birdshot for birds, not people.

  3. #18
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnel124 View Post
    In the summer of 2014 I weighed under 120 pounds and under 5 foot 6 and I had no sore shoulder from shooting over 200 slugs through my benelli M2 tactical for the first time, compared to my first shooting of 3 and half inch slugs through a remington 870 the summer previous. Harsh recoil? Should you even be shooting shotguns?
    Yes, shotguns, especially with heavier loads have a harsh recoil. Why do you think LEO generally use reduced recoil rounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by cnel124 View Post
    ...Faster follow up shots, but can you as quickly get that gun up to fire the first round. Grizzlies and Black bears are a common threat along with a little moose where I come from (if you are in the situations which they are around), the first shot is most important. Can't hit the target, might as well not even shoot.
    There is no guarantee the first shot will hit or hit a vital. Plus the first shot will likely be at a longer range so the probability of a miss goes up,And there is no guarantee of a one shot stop even with a slug or 00. Then that follow-up shot becomes even more important.

    Plus there's some perspective here. My perspective is not being surprise attacked by a bear, but having the gun mounted and needing to fire more than one shot at possibly more than one threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnel124 View Post
    ...Never shot an M4, but I really want one, no point in having lots of rails since you shoot at relatively close range with shotguns anyway so not sure what kind of optics you need. My M2 has a mag extension, 8 shot side saddle, and a flashlight. Keep it light, for defines buckshot and slugs are what you need. Keep the birdshot for birds, not people.
    A shotgun has many applications; perhaps the most versatile gun we can use. We can use bird shot for hunting purposes, buck and slugs for larger animals and SD. I don't think anyone has even hinted at using birdshot for SD.

    I have a tool-less QD side saddle for my M4 plus rails that give me options about where I want to mount my WML. Side saddles are not recommended for the M2 because it is an inertial system. The company I got my QD side saddle from doesn't even offer a side saddle for M2s for that reason.

    However, my tests have revealed that the M2 will perform reliably with even a 8 round side saddle mounted. But, it does raise the minimum load the gun will cycle. Fortunately, every 00 and slug I've tried has function flawlessly in the M2 with a fully loaded 8 round QD side saddle.
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  4. #19
    Member Array ashamans's Avatar
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    Hopefully you didnt leave the pistol grips on you shotguns tangle

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    I went through the process of deciding between the Benelli M2 and M4 and then I bought a Benelli SuperNova Tactical Pump Shotgun for $449.
    I carry a gun, because a Cop is too heavy.

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  6. #21
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashamans View Post
    Hopefully you didnt leave the pistol grips on you shotguns tangle
    I certainly did. My handgun has a pistol grip, my AR has a pistol grip, and my shotgun has a pistol grip.

    I tried shooting one handed and the pistol grip has a huge advantage, and it you ever needed an advantage it's if you have to shoot one handed.
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  7. #22
    Member Array ashamans's Avatar
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    Its not about shooting but about reloading
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  8. #23
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    aus is right. Military testing is hardly the sine qua non of gun selection, else how would the military have ended up with the M-16 over other far better weapons. It is highly political and based upon expediency and the lowest common denominator operator. I would choose the M 2 because I have heard so much positive about the inertial system. However, Benelli makes great guns so either will do.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I've owned both & sold my M4. I'm an M2 fan. The lighter weight (IMHO) doesn't appreciably increase recoil because the inertia system (again, IMHO) seems to spread the subjective shove over an ever-so-slightly longer time-frame, lessening the recoil impulse. But that never showed-up having a negative effect on my split-times. (*but the reason for that could be that my skills weren't fast enough for the difference to become apparent. )

    The weight savings, in fatigue factor & transition speed, made it an easy decision for me.
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  10. #25
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashamans View Post
    Its not about shooting but about reloading
    It's about shooting if you need to be shooting. And it's about a pistol grip if you find yourself in a one-hand shooting situation. I didn't choose the M-4 to compete.

    I was at Gunsite taking a Defensive Shotgun course and at the end of the 5 day course we had a timed shoot off. Guess who won? The guy with the Benelli M-4. Of course we were doing SD drills, but we were all pretty impressed with it.

    I haven't had any problems loading it. There are a couple of techniques that are quite efficient. But for me, the most important, critical thing I have to do with a shotgun is shoot it. I may never have to reload it - at least not with my life depending on it.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashamans View Post
    Its not about shooting but about reloading
    Ditto.
    It's about being easier to keep the weapon shouldered with one hand in case you need to do something with the other hand, like keeping it fed.
    I think shooting it one handed is a by-product. Who buys a 12 ga shotgun on the basis of shooting it one handed? Even the shotguns with simply a pistol grip for a stock are bought for their storage capabilities and not for one handed shooting. Otherwise they'd all be semis.

  12. #27
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Ditto.
    It's about being easier to keep the weapon shouldered with one hand in case you need to do something with the other hand, like keeping it fed.
    It is easy to demonstrate that a shotgun with a pistol grip is easier to keep shouldered than a standard grip. The problem is the very awkward angle the stock puts the wrist in. I've almost strained my wrist trying to do that. A pistol grip is much easier on the wrist and orients the wrist in a much stronger position.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    ...I think shooting it one handed is a by-product. Who buys a 12 ga shotgun on the basis of shooting it one handed? Even the shotguns with simply a pistol grip for a stock are bought for their storage capabilities and not for one handed shooting. Otherwise they'd all be semis.
    Shooting it one handed won't be a by product if you are trying to control a child or other person. It won't be a by product if you're having to control your dog with one hand. It won't be a by product if you have to use your other hand for support. It won't be a by product if you injured that hand the day before, or it's injured during a fight

    I have a video by a well known professional hunter. This particular video is about coyote hunting. He went from a standard stock shotgun to a Benelli M4 and couldn't say enough good things about it. There are two spots in the video where he has to shoot a coyote with one hand - he dropped them both.

    This man has used both stocks and his conclusion is the same as me - it's easier to shoot.

    Storage capabilities??? What storage capabilities does a pistol grip have that a standard stock doesn't?

    I didn't buy my Benelli M4 with a pistol grip or my Benelli M2 with a pistol grip because they had storage; I bought them with pistol grips because I can shoot them better and have added flexibility.

    Both are semi autos. That's yet another reason I bought them. They don't require both hands to shoot. If I'm in a SD situation and find my support hand unavailable for whatever reason, I sure want my ability to shoot one-handed maximized.

    But, you know. The fact is, in a civie SD situation, it is extremely rare that there is time or opportunity to reload. If I fire 8 shots out of my Benelli and the fight isn't over I doubt reloading is going to be an option.
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  13. #28
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    I'm an artist with a scattergun, but not so with a pistol grip. It's fine for shooting stationary targets, but I HATE it for moving ones. The first time I shot a Benelli with a pistol grip was off a fantail underway, and I was missing half of them. I had the gunners mate put a normal stock on it and powdered every one. If you haven't grown up shooting shotguns you may not have this problem, but I certainly did. Feels all sorts of wrong and swings poorly for me.

    I have the M3 Super 90. I honestly wouldn't pay for a Benelli without the inertial recoil system. For me it's about speed, because I can shoot mine as fast as an AR. I love mine, and carried an open purchase one on boardings in the Navy. There is nothing, nothing I'd rather have for entries. With low recoil buck you can empty the magazine in a second. It's literally as fast as you can pull the trigger, and because you can also pump it it'll cycle any low recoil rounds, and odd sized like hinge busters. This isn't terribly useful, but if you have a problem a thumb flick turns it into a pump to clear it fast.

    I find the recoil very low even with 3" magnums, and I wish all my shotguns had Benelli ghost rings. They just rock. You have to shoot with them to understand.

    I honestly think you're paying for the name if you don't go with their technology that has been the greatest advance since the A5, which is the ultimate if you want heavy... Just my opinion.
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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Oh boy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    It is easy to demonstrate that a shotgun with a pistol grip is easier to keep shouldered than a standard grip. The problem is the very awkward angle the stock puts the wrist in. I've almost strained my wrist trying to do that. A pistol grip is much easier on the wrist and orients the wrist in a much stronger position.
    Exactly. Thanks for agreeing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Shooting it one handed won't be a by product if you are trying to control a child or other person. It won't be a by product if you're having to control your dog with one hand. It won't be a by product if you have to use your other hand for support. It won't be a by product if you injured that hand the day before, or it's injured during a fight.
    You're right. It will be a necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I have a video by a well known professional hunter. This particular video is about coyote hunting. He went from a standard stock shotgun to a Benelli M4 and couldn't say enough good things about it. There are two spots in the video where he has to shoot a coyote with one hand - he dropped them both.

    This man has used both stocks and his conclusion is the same as me - it's easier to shoot.
    He would be correct IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Storage capabilities??? What storage capabilities does a pistol grip have that a standard stock doesn't?

    I didn't buy my Benelli M4 with a pistol grip or my Benelli M2 with a pistol grip because they had storage; I bought them with pistol grips because I can shoot them better and have added flexibility.
    uhh... Is this a real question regarding my post? I was not comparing an M2 to an M4. I said "simply a pistol grip for a stock".
    pistol grips.jpg
    Looks like it would take up less room to me


    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Both are semi autos. That's yet another reason I bought them. They don't require both hands to shoot. If I'm in a SD situation and find my support hand unavailable for whatever reason, I sure want my ability to shoot one-handed maximized.

    But, you know. The fact is, in a civie SD situation, it is extremely rare that there is time or opportunity to reload. If I fire 8 shots out of my Benelli and the fight isn't over I doubt reloading is going to be an option.
    ok.

    Tangle, you really need to get you some guns to shoot that you can have fun with and will cause you no grief.
    Between your redundant problems with the 300 Blackout accuracy, scopes, shooting suppressed, pistol grips, dirty gas chambers... you need to find something that will work for you. Seriously.

  15. #30
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    I'm an artist with a scattergun, but not so with a pistol grip. It's fine for shooting stationary targets, but I HATE it for moving ones. The first time I shot a Benelli with a pistol grip was off a fantail underway, and I was missing half of them. I had the gunners mate put a normal stock on it and powdered every one. If you haven't grown up shooting shotguns you may not have this problem, but I certainly did. Feels all sorts of wrong and swings poorly for me.

    I have the M3 Super 90. I honestly wouldn't pay for a Benelli without the inertial recoil system. For me it's about speed, because I can shoot mine as fast as an AR. I love mine, and carried an open purchase one on boardings in the Navy. There is nothing, nothing I'd rather have for entries. With low recoil buck you can empty the magazine in a second. It's literally as fast as you can pull the trigger, and because you can also pump it it'll cycle any low recoil rounds, and odd sized like hinge busters. This isn't terribly useful, but if you have a problem a thumb flick turns it into a pump to clear it fast.

    I find the recoil very low even with 3" magnums, and I wish all my shotguns had Benelli ghost rings. They just rock. You have to shoot with them to understand.

    I honestly think you're paying for the name if you don't go with their technology that has been the greatest advance since the A5, which is the ultimate if you want heavy... Just my opinion.
    It's true, what we grow up with does feel 'right'. Fortunately for me, I was as much exposed to the pistol grip of the AR and AK so the PG shotgun was a natural.

    I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Your M3 may be faster than an M4, but I doubt it's any faster than an M2.

    I fully understand the personal preference thing. My personal preference is the Benelli M4 because it's a semi, relatively heavy, and doesn't rely on inertia to operate, and has a pistol grip which feels as natural to me as a straight stock does to you.

    It's quite conceivable that a SD situation could wind up with a guy in the floor with the butt of his shotgun against the floor or some other immovable object. That will choke an inertial system.

    I like the weight because I'm older now and have to protect joints a lot more than I used to. I think this is one thing that younger guys just can't grasp. They think that because they can shoot a light shotgun with magnum loads that everybody can. Everybody can't. That's especially evident from exactly the excellent point you make about reduced loads. It's also reinforced by the fact that many PDs use reduced loads.

    It also seems to be difficult to separate 3 gunning, SD, and police type scenarios. Us civies are very unlikely to need to reload a shotgun or empty one in record speed.

    Recoil suppression is important to me not only because I have to be more careful with joints, but some of my applications require some pretty heavy loads. I want all the recoil suppression I can get and the weight of the M4 gives that.

    Another thing I've learned I can do to mitigate recoil from really heavy loads is to install a vertical hand grip on the forearm. I can push against that with my support hand and in doing so both shoulders share the recoil more evenly.
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