Making a major,drastic change in rifles for SD, and shtf. - Page 4

Making a major,drastic change in rifles for SD, and shtf.

This is a discussion on Making a major,drastic change in rifles for SD, and shtf. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My go to rifles are Ak's in 7.62x39, Saiga in 7.62x51 and a PSL in 7.62x54. I like the 30 cals and the same manual ...

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Thread: Making a major,drastic change in rifles for SD, and shtf.

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    My go to rifles are Ak's in 7.62x39, Saiga in 7.62x51 and a PSL in 7.62x54. I like the 30 cals and the same manual of arms. I do have an AR and use it for coyotes and other varmints but move up to the bigger calibers fir SD.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!


  2. #47
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    Interesting thread. Thanks for the posts!

    This would bother me too:

    But the last straw was a couple of weeks ago. I attended by invitation a culling hunt at a local game farm. There were a few guys there using the AR rifles, and watching the results of the shooting made me sick to my stomach, but it was for me a valuable lesson.
    I have my 7.62 and 30-30, and just got an M4, and wonder if part of the military decision was the lethality decision, that is, a wounded warrior is still out of the fight at greater cost to the enemy? Not trying to start an argument, but a wounded soldier absorbs more resources immediately...........Obviously long term effect might be different. I never took classes on Doctrine.

    I do think it is an interesting thread.

    I am also not a hunter so I have no experience there (other than varmits)........
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  3. #48
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    I'v had ar-15s and ak-47 rifles but what I really like is a nice SKS. Second best a 30-30 lever action marlin..
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  4. #49
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    I can see your point Glockman. Animals by and large can survive injuries that would leave a human incapacitated and or die shortly, and animals do not get medical treatment. Being the most fragile species on the planet, it amazes me that we made it to the top tier of the food chain, opposable thumbs and something resembling thought process. Who'd of thought.

    Maybe I made an error when I got on the AR15 wagon, but I have no delusions of a one or even three shot stop with any firearm in a SD situation. I don't hunt, so that is a moot point. I do greatly enjoy paper punching though, especially at range. Under 300y is no fun anymore with a rifle, unless I am forcing myself into awkward positions and still making the hit.

    In a TEOTWAWKI, SHTF, (insert your various culture acronym here), I am grabbing what I can and would prefer an E&E (escape & evade) rather than engagement. I get the training and try to practice as much as I can in case I am left with no choice but to engage.

    I do know now that it is the energy at impact that counts along with bullet design. A 75gr .224 @ 2800fps =1305#, 180gr .40S&W @ 900 = 323#, 180gr .308 @ 2400fps = 2301# and 230gr .45acp @ 750fps = 287#. These are all slightly under muzzle velocity (rounded off), we'll call it 50ft.

    Accuracy makes up for caliber and available energy shortfalls.

    Rock & Glock - you are presuming your adversaries actually give a darn about their fallen comrade, teammate, partner, etc...Most of our current adversaries that our military is engaging does not, and I am pretty sure that gangs, mobs, and BGs in general play by the Pirates Code - He who falls behind shall be left behind.
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    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Actimmy, I don't know what that is.
    It's this :

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  6. #51
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    Two m1-a rifles. Wow Im jealous. Ive always wanted one. But budget wont allow. I do have an ar Im thinking of getting an upper in 30 cal for more firepower. I mainly use my ar for club shoots and can be pressed into home defense if necessary. Enjoy your new rifles when you get em.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Rock & Glock - you are presuming your adversaries actually give a darn about their fallen comrade, teammate, partner, etc...Most of our current adversaries that our military is engaging does not, and I am pretty sure that gangs, mobs, and BGs in general play by the Pirates Code - He who falls behind shall be left behind.
    The Taliban is actually known for removing their dead/wounded from the field whenever possible. There are a number of reasons for this, including cutlural burial rituals, and they believe it will demoralize Americans when we can't figure out how many we killed/wounded. But, they definitely make attempts to not leave their dead/wounded behind, or at least did in 2010.

    EDIT: I would really, really like one of these DS Arms FAL 18" carbines: http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-Carbi...nfo/SA5818C-A/

    I think it would be quite the potent rifle. If I was going to go M1A, I believe I would go with the scout rifle model.
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  8. #53
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    I'm in love with the AR platform. I ALWAYS consider making a move to a 6.8 barrel and bolt, but the reason I don't is because the cost of the ammo. The 5.56 certainly has it's limitations, but my goal for this rifle isn't hunting. Deer are tough, wild animals. Humans (sober) are generally weak domesticate creatures. Despite they're similar size and weight, I believe deer have a greater "fight" in them to stay alive, along with a greater tolerance for pain. I've always had a small doubt in the back of my mind about the 5.56, but with quality ammo, I have confidence that it can easily deal with a human threat within 50 yards with no issues. I'm not trying to take wild animals at 150 yards. I'm trying to take wild danger humans threatening my life within 25-50. Besides, I always have an AK that can be loaded with quality soft points.

    I'd be lying if I said I didn't want an M1-A, for it's extra "umf". But a 6.8 caliber AR, or .300 would be ideal, but the cost of the ammo is just too much. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to just build two duplicate AR's on in 5.56 to train with and the other in a more desirable caliber for actual "use". But until then, I have faith in my 5.56 Mk318 ammo to make reliable stops within a short distance.

  9. #54
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    If I understand you point , I am going the other direction . I have all the so called black rifles we would ever need. A useful range of calibers .
    Now I want some plain Jaine rifles 308 that while not overly fancy a cool will get the job done. In many case I can buy quality and still get almost 2 for 1.
    I have always thought you need. Quantity, Quality and flexibility in your weapon choices .
    But I have to start over all my weapon sank in a boating accident.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    ...
    But I have to start over all my weapon sank in a boating accident.
    Time for some scuba lessons and proper salvage gear.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    And if its a close threat, I want a big bullet. So, I am super sizing everything, 30 cal rifles, and 45 pistols. When you have to hit someone, hit them hard the first time.
    I do believe in bringing enough gun.
    Does this mean you are giving up your jframe? as your primary carry?

    Edit: Also, I am interested in your opinion. Why do you think the 223 was ineffective on the animals you were hunting? Do you think it was a matter of the rounds not making it to the vitals?
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  12. #57
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    Very interesting thread. I had been considering adding a .308 semi to my small cache and this thread isn't helping to quell that idea! I've long toyed with which platform would produce the best overall investment for a single rifle; M1A, AR10, FAL or SCAR. Sadly I probably won't have the cash to go with any of them before they are all outlawed anyway...

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
    Does this mean you are giving up your jframe? as your primary carry?

    Edit: Also, I am interested in your opinion. Why do you think the 223 was ineffective on the animals you were hunting? Do you think it was a matter of the rounds not making it to the vitals?
    My J frame accompanied me to church today, in a pocket holster with speed loader. The Jframe is just to good a package to give up, and there ain't no flys on the 38spl; especially my handloads.

    The 223/5.56 is just enough caliber to hit hard enough on game to let it know it's been hit. Sure, it will kill, but not quick enough to suit me. IMO, a good razor sharp broadhead bleeds out animals quicker than a small 22 caliber.

    I cannot give any scientific reasoning for my suspicions, but can only base my judgement on what I have seen.

    I want to be clear here on this opinion. I am not saying anyone else is wrong in their opinions or choices. I have killed alot of medium game with various calibers and platforms over the years, and also either directly or collectively seen the effects on bipeds.
    I profess no expertise, just my opinion on what I have seen. And I am sure the AR platform and 223/5.56 will do a good job in SD or SHTF senerios for those that prefer them. There are many pros to the combination.

    But truthfully, down deep, I have never liked the dirty gas system of the AR, or the 22 caliber round. I just simply feel better with the 30 caliber round, and the overall M1A operating system.
    I just simply have more faith and confidence in the M1A, and 30 caliber bullet.

    I would even rather have a M1Garrand than the very popular AR.
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  14. #59
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    I'm curious what type of 5.56 ammo those hunters were using? FMJ? JHP? or JSP?
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  15. #60
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    Guys,

    Some of you are missing Glockman's point he does not like AR's. Your choice of SD gun is a very personal choice, its the Indian not the arrow. I would be just as well served by one of my Marlin Lever guns (357 mag and 44 Mag) as my AR for most purposes. I like the Ergo's of the M-14 over the 308 AR's, but I like the ability of the AR's to use any ammo I come across in a truly SHTF scenario. There are a multitude of calibers and configurations available today for AR's, but as Gman stated he does not like AR's.

    Every choice we make has ramifications and Gman has thought it all out and is happy with his decision. I applaud his narrowing down to one handgun caliber and one rifle caliber it makes like tremendously simple. I have done similar with my handguns. I have 3 Glocks that I use daily and all three are 40/357 Sig/9mm capable in a matter of moments. A 308 makes a wonderful all around cartridge, there are others that work just as well in specified roles, but stray from the role and not so well.

    I do think that the 223 with the right round in the right hands is just as capable in a SD role against humans as the 308 within its limitations. In the civilian and LE world it may be somewhat difficult to articulate a long range SD shooting, which is where the big gun really has the advantage. This might negate some of the perceived advantage of the 308.
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