I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations...

This is a discussion on I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It is labeled "Law Enforcement" so it may not be available for sale to the public. It shows the velocity to be 1145 fps if ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array popo22's Avatar
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    It is labeled "Law Enforcement" so it may not be available for sale to the public. It shows the velocity to be 1145 fps if that helps. I am going to venture to say that either of the two you mentioned will be substantially better performers than the "reduced recoil" that we were using.
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  3. #47
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    I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations...

    It is called Federal LE133 8 pellet 00 buckshot.

    http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/td..._-_5_ROUND_BOX

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    What a thread! Great information here, I am just learning a ton.

    I have a Benelli behind the bedroom door for the exact reasons mentioned, but given the events of the last several weeks, it may end up as a standard "choice" <sarcasm off>. Shotguns are plentiful, lack the dire but emotional labels thrown about, shells are plentiful and available oftentimes in large quantities in a huge number of configurations, and operation consistent. Heck, even Joe Biden has one, or so he said. There are also hundreds if not thousands of shotgun configurations available!

    Thanks for starting a great thread, Tangle!
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by popo22 View Post
    It is labeled "Law Enforcement" so it may not be available for sale to the public. It shows the velocity to be 1145 fps if that helps. I am going to venture to say that either of the two you mentioned will be substantially better performers than the "reduced recoil" that we were using.
    Hmmm, I'm confused. Is the load quoted above what you were using or what you are currently using. Because that's about as 'reduced' as you can get .

    I just got back from the range and shot these five shots with the Federal 9 pellet, 00, 1145 fps, at 7 yds. Notice the very tight pattern and realize I could have pulled a shot left or right a bit, making the pattern bigger than it would be with all hits at the exact same place:



    This is great ammo, shoots like a dream, I love it, but it is reduced recoil and now that bothers me.

    That pattern is so tight, you could easily do a head shot with it at 7 yds even in a hostage situation. However, you really can't; look at a close-up. There is a fine over-spray of something. It isn't pellets; I'm not sure what it is but the spread of the over-spray could blind a hostage. Still if there is no hostage and a head is all you have to shoot at, all the pellets would hit it.



    Here's a pic of the 8 pellet 000 at 1325 fps. This stuff has a pretty stout kick to it. I'm sure it would be very effective; the recoil is manageable, but it does pack a wallop! Or, it could be that I'm just a sissy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tony617 View Post
    Hey thanks Tony! I'll probably order some just to compare it to the 9 pellet. Since the velocity is the same and the pellet count is one less, it should have less recoil. However the potential of each pellet will still be the same since they are traveling at the same speed as the 9 pellet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    What a thread! Great information here, I am just learning a ton.

    I have a Benelli behind the bedroom door for the exact reasons mentioned, but given the events of the last several weeks, it may end up as a standard "choice" <sarcasm off>. Shotguns are plentiful, lack the dire but emotional labels thrown about, shells are plentiful and available oftentimes in large quantities in a huge number of configurations, and operation consistent. Heck, even Joe Biden has one, or so he said. There are also hundreds if not thousands of shotgun configurations available!

    Thanks for starting a great thread, Tangle!
    Absolutely - I see it exactly the same way. And I'm learning a lot too.

    Hmmm, if Biden has a shotgun, then it has to be wrong some how. But you make an excellent point. Shotguns don't carry the stigma as the carbine, or as it is so often mislabeled 'assault weapon'. And the shotgun versions without a PG, fade even further out of focus.
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Shotguns are great defensive weapons. I own a Benelli M4 that works well, but as you all know, the M4 is best for my needs. I love the devastating effectiveness of a shotgun, but side by side through a shoot house or clearing a structure, my ability is considerably better with the rifle. Also, having a rifle for work, it just makes sense for me to use one for my other roles as well.

    Plus, having a 10.5" rifle vs an 18" shotgun makes a massive difference for me as well. Still, I'll always have a shotgun of some type and would happily grab one for defensive use just as quickly as I would a rifle.

    There's some good shotgun training out there, but limited compared to rifle and handgun. One of my biggest issues with shotguns is that people do it spend the time needed to train with them properly. I see guys shoot them well. But then they reload it like a one-armed gorilla standing in the snow. I also see a lot of people not shooting nearly as much as they should for reasons I don't understand, like recoil or fatigue.... Neither of which should be an issue with proper stance/grip.

    I won't move away from my rifles. I like their handling and how capable they are with certain ammo choices. But, if I didn't have kids and had to stay put in a room waiting on the cops rather than moving to my kids, I'd likely choose the shotgun as well.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eichorn View Post
    Does anyone know of any actual tests of shotgun loads on soft body armor? Buckshot and slugs? I am curious, because I was under the impression that the projectile did not need to actually penetrate the material in order to be lethal (or at least cause fairly devastating injuries). I'm assuming buckshot would not work very well, but the sheer impact force of a slug would certainly cause an attacker some issues; even if not immediately lethal. A 1oz slug at 1600 fps comes in at 2487 ft lbs. of energy (at the muzzle), that's gotta count for something.
    Yes. Dr Gary Roberts (DocGKR on Lightfighter and m4carbien) has done very extensive studies on body armor. In all cases, none of the impacts were incapacitating, even against soft armor, if I'm remembering correctly. I don't believe any penetrated. Sure, getting hit with a slug will hurt like hell, but even if it causes devastating impact trauma (which it does not), it's not necessarily a fight stopper.

    I am going to re-read that report and if I'm incorrect in any way, I'll quickly edit this post.

    The only way to truly defeat armor is with a rifle or AP ammo. 5.56 tears through soft armor, whether OTM or barrier blind. It's burned some effectiveness, but it will still stop a threat.

    Now, even if a slug to the vest doesn't stop the fight, it will buy you enough time to assess and evaluate, allowing follow-up shots to the proper area for incapacitation.

    So, a word to those out there, never never never assume that a shotgun is a one shot atop weapon. Train with it the same as the rifle or handgun and fire multiple rounds until the threat is truly incapacitated. Practice failure drills, practice three to center mass, practice multiple rounds to the golden triangle (nipples to eyes).

    I hear so much about how effective shotguns are with one shot and have seen many train firing one shot. This is setting yourself up for failure, just as it is with other firearms. So, should you be unlucky enough to encounter more than one threat or a threat(s) wearing armor, you'll be well prepared to fire that follow up that may save your life.
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  8. #52
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    I don't believe this product was around when Mr. Roberts did his testing NEW! Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum
    This ammo is pretty darn impressive, I hope someone will conduct some independent tests to see if it lives up to the manfacuers claims.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Shotguns are great defensive weapons. I own a Benelli M4 that works well, but as you all know, the M4 is best for my needs. I love the devastating effectiveness of a shotgun, but side by side through a shoot house or clearing a structure, my ability is considerably better with the rifle. Also, having a rifle for work, it just makes sense for me to use one for my other roles as well.

    Plus, having a 10.5" rifle vs an 18" shotgun makes a massive difference for me as well.
    I think it's important here to clarify a few things. One, you're comparing a Class III weapon with a 10.5" barrel to a legal length shotgun. And, the Benelli M4 is just about the heaviest shotgun out there at 8.5 lbs compared to a Benelli M2 that barely weighs 7 lbs with a full length mag tube and 18" barrel. The vast majority of us will have either a 16" carbine or 18" shotgun.

    Second, if I understand this accurately, you have nowhere near the experience on a shotgun as you do a Class III short barreled carbine. That's not a criticism in any way, I'm just trying to point out some differences and that alone could explain how you can be considerably better with a rifle in a shoot house.

    Third, running a shoot house, essentially a fast 'clearing' operation is a scenario very unlikely for civilians. I think the context for the vast majority of us is home defense against intruders, and there could be some need to move through the house to protect children, but it would still be different than clearing a shoot house.

    Another scenario that civies may face is a SHTF situation of some kind. We saw the guns come out in the aftermath of Katrina and I think I saw more shotguns that carbines. SHTF scenarios can be very difficult to establish needs for. In the case of Katrina where people were staying home and protecting, probably a shotgun or carbine would serve equally well. But if the situation deteriorates and food has vanished and we have to turn to wildlife for food, then I think the shotgun would have a major advantage.

    Before we get into 'we could have both', maybe we couldn't. If we were in a evac situation due to lack of resources and/or growing dangers from threats, I really don't see us hanging both a shotgun and a carbine around our neck. In a situation where I have to choose one because I can't support two long guns and ammo for both and a handgun and ammo for it and water, and, and, and, I think the shotgun would be the no brainer choice.

    So given that scenario, a shotgun would be a formidable gun for personal protection and for gathering food. A lot of us don't live in areas where we could lay our hands on hogs, deer, etc. - nor would we know how to hunt them if they were around, but birds either on the ground or in the air, rabbits, squirrels etc. could be harvested with shotgun using a wide variety of loads from shot to buck. If we did cross paths with a deer or hog, there's the slug that would extend the range of the shotgun to about 100 yds.

    If we found ourselves in need of emergency shelter and came upon a suitable structure but it was locked, the shotgun could likely 'pick the lock' or blow the hinges off. We wouldn't be able to lock or secure the door but at least we could stand it back up to keep out some of the cold, blowing wind, and rain.

    That brings us to your excellent point about shotguns:

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...There's some good shotgun training out there, but limited compared to rifle and handgun. One of my biggest issues with shotguns is that people do it spend the time needed to train with them properly. I see guys shoot them well. But then they reload it like a one-armed gorilla standing in the snow. I also see a lot of people not shooting nearly as much as they should...
    The shotgun is the most versatile gun we have, but compared to a handgun and carbine it is far more complicated and deceptively so. The common perception is, one type of ammo, load it up, and shoot it as needed. It's far more complicated than that to fully exploit the benefits of a shotgun. However, in reality, most would never be in a situation where advanced techniques would be that critical. Still, it would be unwise not to a least know the full manipulation of a shotgun. While probability may be small, it's not impossible.

    And this goes back to your excellent point about training, or better, the lack of training and it really even goes beyond that to the lack of knowledge about how to fully utilize a shotgun.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...like recoil or fatigue.... Neither of which should be an issue with proper stance/grip.
    I'm gonna have to disagree a bit there. A shotgun recoils! Grip and stance can do a lot to mitigate felt recoil and the effects of recoil, but there's only so much grip and stance can do. Once you've done that the more load you shoot, the more it's going to recoil. If it slips out of position due to motion, recoil, whatever, then we've lost that grip and stance and we're going to get beat up. I took a 5 day shotgun course at Gunsite. We fired 500 rounds in those five days, I shot a little more than that I think because I loved it so. My shoulder got sore and I was doing it right. Of course that's far more concentrated shooting than most will ever need in a real-life scenario. But, shotguns do recoil. You have to have everything right or it flat out jars you. I know, I missed one just today and thought the roof fell in.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...I won't move away from my rifles. I like their handling and how capable they are with certain ammo choices. But, if I didn't have kids and had to stay put in a room waiting on the cops rather than moving to my kids, I'd likely choose the shotgun as well.
    We have to make choices. What we choose must be based on the situation developing before us OR the situation we anticipate.

    In my case, I don't have children, I'm not sure it would sway me much if I did though, and as a one-gun-to-do-it-all, I think the shotgun wins hands down. That's certainly not to say the rifle doesn't have a place. But I'm choosing the shotgun because of it's devastating stopping power as you put it, and I agree, and it's extreme versatility as a threat stopper, food harvester, and even door opener.

    I believe the shotgun takes much more of a commitment than the carbine or handgun, but the payback is it can do more if you know how to effectively run it. Because of that, I spend far more time on my shotgun than a carbine because I want those skills burned into reflexive.

    No gun will be perfect for every situation, and that goes for the shotgun. But I believe it covers far, far more ground if deployed expertly than the carbine or handgun.

    Think of this, in one trigger pull I can put 9, 9mm pellets on a threat - one trigger pull. How long would it take me to do that with a handgun or carbine? If the threat is moving, that one trigger pull may be all I get. I'd much rather that one hit be with a shotgun than a .223 carbine.
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  10. #54
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    Great post. I just recently added a house gun to the collection. It is a pump but I am Ok with operating pump guns. I now have all of the bases covered for now. I would think that a slug would really do some damage to soft armor in the bruising and breaking of bones. Plates it would not penetrate but we should not forget when a slug hits a had surface the it splatters which means the likelihood that he head and neck take damage is there. Anyway, keep up the good work Tangle and Merry Christmas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    Great post. I just recently added a house gun to the collection. It is a pump but I am Ok with operating pump guns.
    Thanks!

    I have a Benelli M4 (semi-auto), a Benelli M2 Tactical (semi-auto), and a Benelli Supernova Tactical (pump) with a Comfortec stock. Guess which one I shoot the most because it's fun? The Supernova pump!

    However one thing to prepare for is one-hand operation - it can be done, but you need to do it a time or two to see what works best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    ...I now have all of the bases covered for now.
    I do believe you do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    ...I would think that a slug would really do some damage to soft armor in the bruising and breaking of bones.
    Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    ...Plates it would not penetrate but we should not forget when a slug hits a had surface the it splatters which means the likelihood that he head and neck take damage is there.
    That's probably true, interesting. I expect the impact would not feel too good even with plates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    ...Anyway, keep up the good work Tangle and Merry Christmas!
    Thanks again and Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Sorry.... Even my non-NFA 16" AR vs my 18" shotgun, there are significant handling differences. As well, I think it's common for people to navigate their home when there's fear of an intruder. Whether its fast and violent or slow and methodical, some firearms are just more maneuverable than others, regardless.

    I can get into much more detail as to why I prefer one over the other, but then it's just preference. Anybody that thinks one trumps the other in any situation without considering the shooter themselves and training, will be fooling themselves. What works for me obviously won't work for the next guy, and vice versa.

    I do agree with all points though.... So, this is not meant to be argumentative opened there's no disagreeing on my part.

    Edit - Slugs will certainly hurt, but breaking a rib is not a gauruntee of a stop. So, nested of hoping for impact trauma, reassess and shoot them where there is no armor.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    I came into a beautiful Rem. 1100 and that is my home defense shotgun. Not tactical, but with a nice mix of "00" and Slugs I have no worries. I shot several thousand rounds at skeet and nearly a thousand rounds of hunting and all with this model. Low recoil is not needed, especially during hi adrenaline. I believe the shotgun is the best HD weapon for me since my experience shooting them puts me into a comfort zone when I handle it. All those rounds were also shot through an 1100. Just like coming home again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Sorry.... Even my non-NFA 16" AR vs my 18" shotgun, there are significant handling differences. As well, I think it's common for people to navigate their home when there's fear of an intruder. Whether its fast and violent or slow and methodical, some firearms are just more maneuverable than others, regardless.
    Maneuverability is not the complete picture. A handgun is more maneuverable than either a AR or shotgun and in the case of minimally trained persons, a handgun is less likely to be taken control of by the BG. In many cases, maneuverability won't come into play.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...I can get into much more detail as to why I prefer one over the other, but then it's just preference. Anybody that thinks one trumps the other in any situation without considering the shooter themselves and training, will be fooling themselves. What works for me obviously won't work for the next guy, and vice versa.
    I agree to a degree, but given equal minimal training a person has more capability with a shotgun than a carbine, e.g. most people can hit a squirrel or bird with a shotgun if food is needed. Most should be able to hit an intruder equally well with either. And maybe just one step beyond minimal training, one should be able to breech a door with a shotgun. One does not need to load or carry mags for the shotgun, except the shotgun mag itself and that's always on the shotgun.

    But then, take a guy like yourself or me that has had extensive training and the picture starts to change. I can fire minimum 9 rounds a second with my shotgun. I can't even start to do that with a carbine. That's pretty near full auto speed. Not equivalent by any means but nearly the same rate of projectiles on the threat or toward the threat area. The ability to hit a threat 9 times with one trigger pull is no small thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Edit - Slugs will certainly hurt, but breaking a rib is not a gauruntee of a stop. So, nested of hoping for impact trauma, reassess and shoot them where there is no armor.
    True, I hope this didn't come across that a slug on plates was the final solution, but rather would be effective enough to give us time and opportunity to pick a better target or escape.
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    So for a shotgun noob, for the purposes that are being discussed - pump or semiauto?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    So for a shotgun noob, for the purposes that are being discussed - pump or semiauto?
    Weeell, you're gonna make me step on some toes here, but I think the semi-auto. There may have been a time when semi's had some reliability problems. But consider that all ARs are semis. Todays semi-autos enjoy that same reliability.

    Purportedly they shoot a bit softer - I can't vouch for that one way or another, it could be the weight of the gun making the difference more than the action.

    The semi is simpler to operate, i.e. no pump, no danger of short stroking etc., but the big thing is one-hand operation. You can shoot a semi one-handed just about as fast as you can two-handed. Then when it is empty, it's easier to load.

    I love pumps though and there's a lot to be said for them. They're just as reliable and cost less and will shoot anything, old shoes, bread crubs where semis can be finicky with lighter loads. Although my Benelli M2 semi ate everything I put in it except the very lightest Extra low recoil field loads and they were like shooting a .223 carbine.
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