I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations...

This is a discussion on I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Tangle - that "overspray" you see on the targets is form the buffering material in the shells. If you have Winchester buckshot you may notice ...

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Thread: I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations...

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    Tangle - that "overspray" you see on the targets is form the buffering material in the shells. If you have Winchester buckshot you may notice it leaking all over the place if you handle the shells a bit. It's like little plastic dust/grain stuff to fill the gaps between the balls and prevent them deforming. I'm sure it wouldn't feel good....but if I'm the hostage, go ahead and take the shot....

    Austin

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  3. #62
    Member Array 336A's Avatar
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    Where you reside and what you plan on using the shotgun for matters as well. If it is soley for HD then flip a coin and go. However semi automatic firearms will tend to freeze up in colder climates. This when the lubricant being used is introduced to colder temperatures than what it was designed for. I suppose you could run it dry but you won't catch this guy treating any firearm in such a way. I do a lot of hunting in sub zero weather so I like the reliability of a manual operated firearm. I've never seen any break action, bolt action, or pump action shotgun fail in colder enviornments due to the oil freezeing up the gun.

    I'm surprised that no one has brought up another important aspect of the shotgun. In a prolonged crisis scenerio shotgun ammo can be reloaded with a minimal degree of effort, you don't even need a press to do it. some powder, cloth, primers, shot, a 1/4" driver, wax of some sort and some Lee Dippers are all thats needed. Try doing that with rifle or handgun ammunition. A shotgun is a whole lot more versatile than most give it credit for. A 12 GA pump is responsible for keeping a lot of meat stocked in my freezer more so than any other firearm, from squirrel to deer it's done it all. No other firearm comes even close to matching a shotguns versatility nothing.

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    * Warning - Thread drift potential ahead *

    Tangle - My only quibble is with the whole idea of what to take in a SHTF scenario, where you are on foot. While the shotgun has many advantages that you articulated very well - it has one significant disadvantage in that role - the size and weight of the ammo. How much shotgun ammo can you realistically carry while on foot? Are you going to carry buckshot, birdshot, and slugs, too?

    Many will disagree I suppose, but if it ever came to that, I would probably take...my Ruger 10/22. You can easily carry more than 1000 rounds. It will serve for defense, and you can hunt with it - everything from large game to small.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  5. #64
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    Originally Posted by popo22
    "It is labeled "Law Enforcement" so it may not be available for sale to the public. It shows the velocity to be 1145 fps if that helps. I am going to venture to say that either of the two you mentioned will be substantially better performers than the "reduced recoil" that we were using.
    Hmmm, I'm confused. Is the load quoted above what you were using or what you are currently using. Because that's about as 'reduced' as you can get ."

    These are what we are issuing now, and they tested to perform pretty well. As I said before, they are not the "best" load on the market but they are what the "dept." would "sign off" on and considerably better than the "reduced recoil" loads we had been using. Keep in mind that the LE agencies must weigh the balance between effectiveness and overpenetration (at least in their view). They also must consider that some of the current recruits are not really proficient with shotguns, much less able to handle "full load" 12 ga. loads. (Iknow, I know, but its what we are getting as recruits these days). That is why we went to "reduced recoil" loads to begin with.
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Why buy slugs? Just cut any shell you have, and you have created the ultimate exotic ammo...Think Glaser safety slug
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  7. #66
    Member Array 336A's Avatar
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    That or you could make a wax slug saving the hull for reloading later.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Why buy slugs? Just cut any shell you have, and you have created the ultimate exotic ammo...Think Glaser safety slug
    I had forgot all about that little trick, but yeah one could do that. However I'm not sure that's something you want to do and keep around very long.
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  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 336A View Post
    That or you could make a wax slug saving the hull for reloading later.
    OK, don't leave me hanging here, what is this?
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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 336A View Post
    Where you reside and what you plan on using the shotgun for matters as well. If it is soley for HD then flip a coin and go. However semi automatic firearms will tend to freeze up in colder climates.
    Most of the oils I use, Gun Butter, FP-10 are rated to waaaay below zero. But that is a good point and I'm gonna ask the manufacturers about that just to be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by 336A View Post
    ...I'm surprised that no one has brought up another important aspect of the shotgun. In a prolonged crisis scenerio shotgun ammo can be reloaded with a minimal degree of effort, you don't even need a press to do it. some powder, cloth, primers, shot, a 1/4" driver, wax of some sort and some Lee Dippers are all thats needed.
    I'd really like to see the method; do you know of any resources, i.e. survival books, etc. that would describe the process and tools required? That would certainly be an advantage; of course you would still have to have primers and powder.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    * Warning - Thread drift potential ahead *
    I don't see it as a drift; it's part of the shotgun as defense weapon....

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Tangle - My only quibble is with the whole idea of what to take in a SHTF scenario, where you are on foot. While the shotgun has many advantages that you articulated very well - it has one significant disadvantage in that role - the size and weight of the ammo. How much shotgun ammo can you realistically carry while on foot? Are you going to carry buckshot, birdshot, and slugs, too?
    I have the same concern about 9mm vs .45 ACP ammo. .45 weighs about twice as much as 9mm and takes up more than twice the space to store.

    On foot is especially challenging but very realistic. However with regard to rifle vs shotgun ammo, and 9mm vs .45, it depends on perceived duration and the anticipated need associated with the event that put us on foot. I used to think in terms of 500 handgun rounds, but how could we possibly need that much ammo? I think the same applies to the shotgun/carbine, how much do we really need? A box of 25 bird shot, 6 rounds of 00 in the mag and four 00 and four slugs in the side saddle, maybe 8 in a belt caddy and another small batch of 00 and slugs packed shouldn't be too unmanageable.

    OTOH, if one carried a carbine, he could carry probably double the ammo count, but shooting birds on the fly, squirrels or rabbits for food would be more difficult unless you could catch them sitting. Even then a .223 would vaporize birds, maybe squirrels too.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Many will disagree I suppose, but if it ever came to that, I would probably take...my Ruger 10/22. You can easily carry more than 1000 rounds. It will serve for defense, and you can hunt with it - everything from large game to small.
    I don't disagree. Although I'm not so sure about the .22 on large game. Many think large game is challenging for a .223 much less a .22 cal.

    Although a good .22 target pistol with a scope might be a good compliment to a shotgun!
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 336A View Post
    Here yo go tangle, granted I know he is using black powder but as long as you know how much powder one of the simple Lee Dippers throw it's easy. Reloading 12GA with (Pyrodex) Black Powder in the Field - YouTube

    How to make your own Wax Slugs for Shotguns - YouTube
    Wow! That was interesting! It addresses longer term sustainability than I would anticipate, but nonetheless good stuff to know.

    My first reaction was, yeah, but you have to carry primers, powder, pellets, and a few tools - why not just carry the loaded shells to start with and not have to do all that. But I think the answer is, the individual components pack a lot tighter than the number of shotgun shells the supplies would load.

    Didn't care for the lighter and beeswax, and he didn't either. The candle he mentioned would be ideal.

    Haven't watched the others yet.
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  14. #73
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Hey Tangle - as far as SHTF situation goes...

    A .22 can certainly harvest large game. You may need to get closer, and shot placement trumps all else, as it usually does. In normal circumstances, we are concerned about making an ethical kill with (preferably) a single shot. But in a survival situation, where you are trying to fend off starvation, I would not feel too bad if I had to fire a volley of .22 to put food in front of my family. Poachers kill elephants with AK-47s, even though no hunter would consider the 7.62 x 39 an ethical cartridge to hunt elephant with.

    The shotgun does retain the advantage of being able to hit birds on the fly, but when ammo is scarce, you are probably better off catching them on the ground anyway. A .22 will harvest small game as well as a shotgun on the ground - as long as the game isn't running too fast.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  15. #74
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    True, but we would be substituting a .22 for vastly superior SD weapon. Certainly .22s can kill, I'm not so sure about stopping, especially more than one threat as could easily occur in a SD or SHTF situation. If one couldn't get head shots, it would likely take several .22s to deal with a hungry determined person(s). You may not have time and opportunity but one shot.

    To me, the .22 is a supplement gun rather than a primary weapon. One can carry more ammo for the .22, by far more, but if it doesn't stop threats effectively, we may not get a chance to use all that ammo. The shotgun can do it all, even stop a bear if we needed to.
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  16. #75
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    Personally I think the bug out option is over rated and probably in most cases we will experience, not the best option.
    With that in mind, the devastating qualities of a shotty are at the top of the list as a must have addition in the mix.

    I certainly would choose it over the long gun for anything 25 yards and under, which is ideal for defending a home and property.

    Those 9 pellets in a 00 buck round closely resemble the size and weight of 9 22 rimfire bullets.

    An argument could be made that a bow and arrow could be used, but the fact is that it's all a mental exercise. But you cannot go wrong with a shotty, as long as the physical environment that you are operating in does not exceed it's limitations.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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