I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations... - Page 6

I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations...

This is a discussion on I too am making a drastic change in long guns for SD and SHTF situations... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I have kind of gone the other direction. I have been to lots of training and carried and used shotguns for 30 years and seen ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    I have kind of gone the other direction. I have been to lots of training and carried and used shotguns for 30 years and seen people shot with buckshot, birdshot and slugs. Within its limitations a good 12 gauge with full power 00 buck with a man that knows how to run it will absolutely dominate a pistol range gunfight. With any kind of shot the max effective range is 15 yards, yes there have been freak occurrences of the innocent getting hit down the road with a pellet and being killed. Lets not delude ourselves,
    A shotgun is a close range weapon. For HD as a "repelling boarders" weapon it is great. For clearing a house a handgun is better. For small people a carbine may be better or for all around use a carbine may be better.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    ...With any kind of shot the max effective range is 15 yards, yes there have been freak occurrences of the innocent getting hit down the road with a pellet and being killed. Lets not delude ourselves,
    A shotgun is a close range weapon. For HD as a "repelling boarders" weapon it is great. For clearing a house a handgun is better. For small people a carbine may be better or for all around use a carbine may be better.
    Well that might have been true some time back, but apparently new technologies in shotgun ammo development has extended the range considerably. The common rule of thumb of shot spread was 1" per yard. But, I shot this at only 7 yards. It's 5 shots of Federal Premium LE with 9 pellets of 00 at 1145 fps. It was shot from a Benelli Supernova Tactical with an 18" bbl with a fixed cylinder choke, i.e. the choke is part of the barrel, hence not removable.

    The group for all five shots is only 1-3/4" high by 2-1/4" wide. At 25 yds that group would be about 6-1/4" high by 8" wide. All that would fit on the torso of a person even if it were not centered.



    However, if there's any doubt, one can do a slug changeover and extend the shotgun's range to 75 yards or better. A shotgun is not just a close range gun.

    Well there's some room for question whether a handgun is best for clearing a house. I've done it with both in simulation training. The handgun is the most difficult gun we have to shoot accurately and is not as effective as a shotgun - especially at across the room ranges.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Personally I think the bug out option is over rated and probably in most cases we will experience, not the best option.
    With that in mind, the devastating qualities of a shotty are at the top of the list as a must have addition in the mix.

    I certainly would choose it over the long gun for anything 25 yards and under, which is ideal for defending a home and property.

    Those 9 pellets in a 00 buck round closely resemble the size and weight of 9 22 rimfire bullets.

    An argument could be made that a bow and arrow could be used, but the fact is that it's all a mental exercise. But you cannot go wrong with a shotty, as long as the physical environment that you are operating in does not exceed it's limitations.
    I agree, except 00 pellets are 0.33" in diameter, 0.02" shy of 9mm, and traveling faster than 9mm rounds fired from a handgun - that's pretty potent!
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    I have kind of gone the other direction. I have been to lots of training and carried and used shotguns for 30 years and seen people shot with buckshot, birdshot and slugs. Within its limitations a good 12 gauge with full power 00 buck with a man that knows how to run it will absolutely dominate a pistol range gunfight. With any kind of shot the max effective range is 15 yards, yes there have been freak occurrences of the innocent getting hit down the road with a pellet and being killed. Lets not delude ourselves,
    A shotgun is a close range weapon. For HD as a "repelling boarders" weapon it is great. For clearing a house a handgun is better. For small people a carbine may be better or for all around use a carbine may be better.
    I hope that you are refering to the use of standard birdshot for the purpose of HD only, and that your not lumping buckshot into the 15yd max range. Otherwise I whole heratedly disagree with the thought that 15 yards is the max effective range of a shotgun with any shot. I've personally taken 3 big turkey's at 40 yards. One shot a piece and and I had my tag affixed and in my freezer shortly there after. Though I don't advocate it's use many still use OO/OOO buckshot for deer hunting in states where it's leagal. Deer unlike humans are very resiliant and as often times happens will run a good distance after recieving a well placed shot to the pump house from a high power rifle round. However people still use buckshot to hunt deer where legal, and are taking deer well beyond 15 yards.

    It has also been shown that buck shot with the new flight control style wads have deadly patterns that exceed what we've previously been accustomed to. The wad with this new buckshot ammo is just beggining to seperate at 15 yards.

  5. #80
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    For those in disbelief of how effective or for far a load buckshot can hold a lethal pattern look here. You can view the shootng at around 19:12. Granted the guns being used are set up for hunting purposes, but it clearly demonstrates that buckshot is most certainly capable of being lethal byond ranges of what most think. Shotgun Shell Reloading 00 Buckshot and also #1, 0, 000 Buckshot using the Lee & Sharp Shooter Molds - YouTube

  6. #81
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    Interesting!

    Although those are some special shotgun setups and 3" shells - ouch! He specifically states that they are not set up for home defense, but for long range hunting shots. Still, a standard 00 he shot, did really well.

    But if you consider what the 'stock' round did at about 45 yards and bring that back to 25 yards....

    I think even more defining is the off-the-shelf Federal Premium LE 2-3/4", 9 pellet, 00, at 1145 fps, with Flitecontrol wadding I shot at 7 yards from a stock tactical shotgun with an 18" barrel. The pattern shown in the pic in my post #78 is for five shots with a group size of 1-3/4" high by 2-1/4" wide. A single shot could easily be a 1-1/2" group. If that is linearly scaled out to 25 yards the group would be about 5-3/8"! That gives a rule of thumb spread of less than 1/4" per yard!
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  7. #82
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    It has been proven in numerous ballistics tests that 2-3/4" - 1250 FPS # 1 buckshot containing 16 .30 diameter, 40 grain pellets will outperform ANY O OO or OOO buckshot. It's a simple matter of sectional density, mass and more holes bleed more. 16 .30 #1 balls add up to 4.80". 9 .33 OO balls add up to 2.97". My Mossberg tactical is loaded with Winchester XB121, which IMHO is the best SD shotgun round inside 30'. I have also seen some ballistic gelatin tests where the XB121 was the only round that totally ruptured the ballistic gelatin block requiring the shot to be moved backed 2 meters so the block was not ruptured out the top and side. Say what you wany about OO buck, it's an excellent choice for 12 ghauge SD. I just want others to be aware that Ther Super X XB121 outperforms ANY OO buck round. Either would probably be more than effective at close range. Again # 1 buck has more mass (640 grains versus 477), more pelllets and more sectional density.

    The Super X XB121 also has shot cup to prevent barrel scrub and shot deformation.

  8. #83
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    Regular 1buck is nothing to sneeze at. It also has a TON of recoil, about 40% more than OO buck, in my estimation, hence the recommendation for the new low recoil Federal load.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrassmoose View Post
    It has been proven in numerous ballistics tests that 2-3/4" - 1250 FPS # 1 buckshot containing 16 .30 diameter, 40 grain pellets will outperform ANY O OO or OOO buckshot.
    Well, it outperforms 00 or 000 in specific tests performed in ballistic gel performed at specific distances. One of the things that is desirable about 00 is it is good out to about 30 yards in the right package, specifically Federal LE132 00.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrassmoose View Post
    ...It's a simple matter of sectional density, mass and more holes bleed more. 16 .30 #1 balls add up to 4.80". 9 .33 OO balls add up to 2.97".
    It's not quite that simple. Each 00 pellet has 41% more momentum than each pellet of #1 buck. Momentum is what produces penetration. This is well known to hunters. When they hunt larger game with buckshot, they typically go to 000 to gain more momentum for deeper penetration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrassmoose View Post
    ...I have also seen some ballistic gelatin tests where the XB121 was the only round that totally ruptured the ballistic gelatin block requiring the shot to be moved backed 2 meters so the block was not ruptured out the top and side.
    Then check out the link provided by QKShooter that shows various size shot in super slow motion:



    The #1 test is at the 2:21 mark, not all that impressive, then check out the 00 at the 3:17 mark, and the incredible performance of the 000 at the 4:00 mark.

    After all their testing, they conclude that #4 is optimum for the very reasons you give for #1. I disagree with both. How can anyone look at those tests and see what the 00 and 000 do to the gel block and not conclude they are far superior in gel damage?

    Even if we say the 00 and 000 penetrate too deeply, look at the contortions from the front of the gel block all the way through it. The 000 simply destroys the gel block. Imagine that gel is the lungs, heart, liver, kidney, arteries, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrassmoose View Post
    ...Say what you want about OO buck, it's an excellent choice for 12 gauge SD. I just want others to be aware that Ther Super X XB121 outperforms ANY OO buck round.
    That's only partially, and subjectively true. If we are looking for performance out to 30 yards, then 00 and 000 are much better choices than #1. The 00 and 000 will retain higher energies per pellet and not spread as much with distance. The Federal LE 132 00 shoots a 5", 9 pellet group at 23 yards.

    Granted, HD would not require the range benefits of 00 and 000, but 25 - 30 yards and even more might be quite likely in a SHTF situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrassmoose View Post
    ...The Super X XB121 also has shot cup to prevent barrel scrub and shot deformation.
    Federal LE132 00 has Flitecontrol which is a cup that holds the pellets together longer. Hence it also prevents barrel scrub and shot deformation.
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  10. #85
    Member Array Bluegrassmoose's Avatar
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    Great responses eveyone and all very valid. My comments were strictly limited to a self defense situation at 30 feet or less, nothing related to hunting where I would agre, the OO and OOO buck is some bad*** stuff!

    Thank all.

  11. #86
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    At a handgun distance gunfight, a good man armed with a 12 gauge and 00 buck can dominate. Past 25 yards at the OUTSIDE and you are out of effective range with full power loads.


    Federal LE132 00 has Flitecontrol which is a cup that holds the pellets together longer. Hence it also prevents barrel scrub and shot deformation.
    It is also a low recoil or reduced power load. It has been failing miserably on the street, sure it has a great pattern but not enough energy.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

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  12. #87
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    Having both the AR and the 12 gauge, I too prefer the 12 gauge over the AR. My decision was based totally on the fact as you stated so well. With one trigger pull, I can put several rounds on target that would drop anyone in it's path; that's serious defense in close quarter combat. Also agree with you regarding the hunting capabilities of the 12 gauge. IMO, it's probably the most versatile long gun one could own, at least for me anyway.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    At a handgun distance gunfight, a good man armed with a 12 gauge and 00 buck can dominate. Past 25 yards at the OUTSIDE and you are out of effective range with full power loads.
    If one thinks low recoil 00 buck won't be effective at 25 yards, AND he needs to make a 25 yd shot, he can switch to full power 00, 000, or even to a slug. The slug extends the range to about 100 yds. That's the beauty of the shotgun - it can be tailored to the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    It is also a low recoil or reduced power load. It has been failing miserably on the street, sure it has a great pattern but not enough energy.
    What's your source for that? I have heard of some failures. I've also heard of 5.56 failures.

    One officer on our board posted that has seen a lot of human and large dog shootings with this round says it's working pretty good.

    This from another board,
    "Yes. What you would likely find surprising is at close range, and face it buckshot is a 25-yards or less option in LE/Home defense, it penetrates just as deep as the full recoil loads.

    That may be counter intuitive. But its because the low recoil loads suffer less pellet deformation upon firing and upon impact with the target. A round 00 buck pellet penetrates better than an oblong or flattened 00 Buck pellet.

    So with reduce recoil loads you get equal penetration with tighter patterns, less recoil, less muzzle rise, less muzzle flash and faster followup shots. Its a win - win."


    One of the things that make LE (or PD) 132 00 unique is that the Flitecontrol keeps the pellets together to about 10 yards. I don't recall what it did at 10 yds, but I distinctly remember at 7 yds, I measured the 'pattern' at 3/4"! It looked exactly like a slug hit.

    The significance of this is that the pellets are tightly grouped together and are acting as a unit. That means out to about 10 yds the pellets retain energy and momentum very much like a slug. That also means that since they only start to spread at 10 yds, they should retain more energy and momentum at 25 yds than shot that spreads normally.

    With the right buckshot load, I think the shotgun is effective at 25 yards. It is interesting that the hotter, i.e. full-house loads, have significantly more spread at 25 yards and while they have more energy at 25, all the pellets may not land on the target. That's a liability and reduced wounding on the threat.

    It seems to me that buckshot is generally over-rated beyond 25 yds, yet a lot of bucks have been taken with 00 buckshot beyond 25 yards.

    I read of one account where reduce recoil was used in a LE shooting against a threat 35 yards away. The pellets lodged in his leather jacket! They didn't even penetrate the jacket. But then again, why use buck at that range?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

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