Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

This is a discussion on Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Tangle, you are beginning to sound more and more like one of my physics teachers!...

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Thread: Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array high pockets's Avatar
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    Tangle, you are beginning to sound more and more like one of my physics teachers!
    "If you make something idiot proof, someone will make a better idiot."

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  3. #17
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    Yet another thing I did not want to think about today. Good post.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by high pockets View Post
    Tangle, you are beginning to sound more and more like one of my physics teachers!
    LOL - you just can't escape physics.
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    LOL - you just can't escape physics.
    Depends on the quanity of " Wild Turkey ".
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    Aw common, Tangle--That's why there's more than one pellet! It's like dumping a whole mag in one shot!
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    Good post but I doubt that I would be more than 5 or 6 yards away from my target and even one pellet would ruin the bad guys day, and if not, I would still have 7 more rounds to go.
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  8. #22
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    Ahhh...but, if 9 people make up a firing squad and all 9 persons are armed with .380 handguns...the...READY...AIM...FIRE! should result in a decently swift termination of Life Energy.

    <~~~Last Cigarette....Blindfold? ~ No Blindfold! ~~~READY~AIM~FIRE!~~~~>



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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Aw common, Tangle--That's why there's more than one pellet! It's like dumping a whole mag in one shot!
    Well, each of the 00 buckshot would penetrate less than .380 FMJ. And 9 pellets from a shotgun is nowhere near the penetration and power of 9 115 gn 9mms. It only takes four 9mm rounds to exceed the total energy of the 00 pellets and each shot has far more momentum to penetrate.

    It just kind of seems like the effectiveness of the shotgun comes from a number of relatively shallow penetrating pellets. Perhaps more of a shock effect than penetrating organs.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Because 00 buckshot is right at 9mm in diameter, actually 0.33" vs 0.354" (9 mm), we kinda think of 9 pellet 00 buckshot being equivalent to 9, 9 mm rounds. It isn't and it isn't even close, especially when the 9 pellet 00 is low recoil. Here's why:

    The total energy delivered to a threat by a 12 ga load, say Federal LE13200 reduced recoil which consists of 9 00 pellets at 1145 fps, is an impressive 1413 ft-lbs. However the energy of each individual pellet is only 157 ft-lbs. A .380 Federal American Eagle, FMJ, has 203 ft-lbs of energy. How significant is all this?

    Well, if a threat is shot a distance such that each pellet strikes a different place, i.e. no two pellets strike the same place, then the work done by each pellet, which reflects the ability of the pellet to penetrate, is all you get. A 00 pellet weighs 54 gn and is traveling at 1145 fps (actually that's muzzle velocity) and is very close in diameter to a 9mm. So in a sense it would be like loading your 9 mm handgun with a 54 gn bullet with a velocity of 1145 fps. Who would pick such a round for SD? Yet, that's what each pellet of 00 buckshot is.

    Even the lightest 9mm loads, say a Federal American Eagle, has a bullet weight of 115 gns (well over twice the mass of the 00), a velocity of 1180 fps, and an energy of 358 ft-lbs. So 4 shots of such a 9mm load would deliver the same total energy, actually more 1421 vs 1413, than the shotgun. Then if you compare momentum of a single pellet vs a single 115 gn American Eagle 9mm, the 9mm has over twice the momentum. Momentum is the primary effect that knocks things around, i.e. recoil and bone breaking, not the energy. That's why a .223 with about the same energy as a 12 ga shotgun doesn't have nearly the recoil - the shotgun load has far more momentum.

    Even a 90 gn FMJ .380 has more energy than a single 00 pellet and has 44% more momentum.

    Hmmm, I wonder if I can get a .380 shotgun?

    Another interesting thing is a single 55 gn .223 @ 3240 fps has almost as much energy as the whole 9 pellet 00 buckshot load - 1281 ft-lbs. The .223 has the same weight as an individual 00 pellet but over 8 times the energy!

    Anyway, this is just something to think about when you have nothing else to do, or want to go to sleep or something. This doesn't in any way diminish the power of the shotgun, but on a pellet basis, a 00 pellet is really pretty wimpy. And unfortunately it is the mass and velocity of the pellet that does the work and makes it penetrate.
    That is real close energy wise to emptying the magazine of my Beretta 950 .25 ACP into the perp. :)
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dV8r View Post
    That is real close energy wise to emptying the magazine of my Beretta 950 .25 ACP into the perp. :)
    I'm not following.??? A typical .25 acp is a 50 gn bullet with a muzzle energy of 64 ft-lbs and a muzzle velocity of 760. A single 00 pellet weighs 54 gns with a muzzle energy of 157 ft-lbs - almost 2.5 times more energy and it leaves the muzzle at 1145 fps - 50% more velocity than a .25. And remember there's 9 pellets.
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  12. #26
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    It is funny how effective buckshot is, isn't it? Especially when it is nothing more than a handful of smooth, round lead balls of moderate weight and velocity.

    Makes you wonder if we really need those expanding, spinning, sharp little buzzsaws of death (known as JHPs) that all the ammo makers try to sell us at ridiculous prices.

    Things that make you go "Hmmmm"...
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array high pockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    ... <~~~Last Cigarette....Blindfold? ~ No Blindfold! ~~~READY~AIM~FIRE!~~~~> ...
    Sadly, there are too many that subscribe to the philosophy ~~~READY~FIRE~AIM!~~~~
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    It is funny how effective buckshot is, isn't it? Especially when it is nothing more than a handful of smooth, round lead balls of moderate weight and velocity.
    It is isn't it! I've been thinking the same thing. Especially realizing 00 buck is not even up to the .380 bullet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Makes you wonder if we really need those expanding, spinning, sharp little buzzsaws of death (known as JHPs) that all the ammo makers try to sell us at ridiculous prices.

    Things that make you go "Hmmmm"...
    It does make one wonder!

    And you mention another thing that I've never heard discussed. A bullet is spinning around 100,000 rpm as I recall, and when those petals expand outward, it should be a buzz saw like you alluded to. It seems like it would shred flesh, but I never hear anything about that.
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    I can't take it anymore .................. We are comparing buckshot to rifled rounds............... Oh.......... these caliber discussions!

    Any gun, in a gun fight, is better than a sharp stick, or knife.................... Just sayin.

    At least with the right shotgun, you can still beat someone to death with its mass, when you run out of shells.............. just sayin, again.


    (yeah, I love shotguns!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Well, each of the 00 buckshot would penetrate less than .380 FMJ. And 9 pellets from a shotgun is nowhere near the penetration and power of 9 115 gn 9mms. It only takes four 9mm rounds to exceed the total energy of the 00 pellets and each shot has far more momentum to penetrate.

    It just kind of seems like the effectiveness of the shotgun comes from a number of relatively shallow penetrating pellets. Perhaps more of a shock effect than penetrating organs.
    I always suspected those guys killed by buckshot were faking it.
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