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Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

88K views 166 replies 63 participants last post by  Tangle 
#1 ·
Because 00 buckshot is right at 9mm in diameter, actually 0.33" vs 0.354" (9 mm), we kinda think of 9 pellet 00 buckshot being equivalent to 9, 9 mm rounds. It isn't and it isn't even close, especially when the 9 pellet 00 is low recoil. Here's why:

The total energy delivered to a threat by a 12 ga load, say Federal LE13200 reduced recoil which consists of 9 00 pellets at 1145 fps, is an impressive 1413 ft-lbs. However the energy of each individual pellet is only 157 ft-lbs. A .380 Federal American Eagle, FMJ, has 203 ft-lbs of energy. How significant is all this?

Well, if a threat is shot a distance such that each pellet strikes a different place, i.e. no two pellets strike the same place, then the work done by each pellet, which reflects the ability of the pellet to penetrate, is all you get. A 00 pellet weighs 54 gn and is traveling at 1145 fps (actually that's muzzle velocity) and is very close in diameter to a 9mm. So in a sense it would be like loading your 9 mm handgun with a 54 gn bullet with a velocity of 1145 fps. Who would pick such a round for SD? Yet, that's what each pellet of 00 buckshot is.

Even the lightest 9mm loads, say a Federal American Eagle, has a bullet weight of 115 gns (well over twice the mass of the 00), a velocity of 1180 fps, and an energy of 358 ft-lbs. So 4 shots of such a 9mm load would deliver the same total energy, actually more 1421 vs 1413, than the shotgun. Then if you compare momentum of a single pellet vs a single 115 gn American Eagle 9mm, the 9mm has over twice the momentum. Momentum is the primary effect that knocks things around, i.e. recoil and bone breaking, not the energy. That's why a .223 with about the same energy as a 12 ga shotgun doesn't have nearly the recoil - the shotgun load has far more momentum.

Even a 90 gn FMJ .380 has more energy than a single 00 pellet and has 44% more momentum.

Hmmm, I wonder if I can get a .380 shotgun? :tongue:

Another interesting thing is a single 55 gn .223 @ 3240 fps has almost as much energy as the whole 9 pellet 00 buckshot load - 1281 ft-lbs. The .223 has the same weight as an individual 00 pellet but over 8 times the energy!

Anyway, this is just something to think about when you have nothing else to do, or want to go to sleep or something. This doesn't in any way diminish the power of the shotgun, but on a pellet basis, a 00 pellet is really pretty wimpy. And unfortunately it is the mass and velocity of the pellet that does the work and makes it penetrate.
 
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#48 ·
My impression is that low-recoil loads are recommended because they allow a faster follow-up shot. There're few scenarios where a full-power load would be useful but a low-recoil load didn't deliver; but if you miss with either, you need a follow-up shot pdq
 
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#49 ·
I agree. And, it's not like LE or low recoil loads aren't effective, they are effective. We've had at least one police officer that has seen the effectiveness of low recoil rounds on both humans and big dogs.

My purpose of the thread was not to question the effectiveness of 12 ga low recoil rounds, but simply to point out some irony of the 00 load.

One thing I'm wondering about now is the penetration factor. After watching the video link provided by QKShooter, it appears that non-expanding projectiles penetrate much deeper than we might think. Or another way to say it is non-expanding projectiles take much less energy to penetrate sufficiently.

We know a 115 gn FMJ 9mm can go all the way through someone. However the 9mm has 2.5 times more energy and over twice the mass of a 00 pellet, and I would think the low energy and mass of the 00 buckshot would seriously limit its ability to penetrate. But maybe not. We do know the 12 ga 00 buckshot is an effective threat stopper even with low recoil rounds.
 
#51 ·
Good science/ballistic information, thanks for posting. No arguments from me.

Aside from that, we all agree it is a good weapon. I think of the shotgun as a "weapon of mass underwear disruption". Surely it would win in the intimidating category.
 
#52 ·
These types of talks always bring me back to thinking about the PDX1-type shells. On paper, I quite like the idea. I feel very mall-ninja when I think about buying them, though.

So, what's the real point of the 12" gel test? Sufficient power to hit the CNS from a variety of angles? Buckshot may not get to 12", but each wound channel individually runs the odds of hitting something useful or vital to your opponent. Would you rather one .38" hole go all the way through, or 2 holes go 2/3rs of the way through? It really depends on how critical that last third was, hey?
 
#55 ·
...Would you rather one .38" hole go all the way through, or 2 holes go 2/3rs of the way through? It really depends on how critical that last third was, hey?
That's the point. Each 00 low recoil pellet has less penetration power than a .380. Is that enough? Apparently it is. Low recoil 12 ga is known to be an effective fight stopper. It's just surprising to realize a 00 pellet is not even equivalent to a .380 FMJ.

I guess we could think of this like this: Suppose we have 7 persons shooting .380 autos. The reason for 7 is that's all it takes to match the energy level of a 9 pellet 00 low recoil load. So if the 7 persons fire 7 .380s at the same time and hit the threat at the same time. That would impart the same energy and slightly more momentum to the threat as a 12 ga. 9 pellet 00 low recoil round.

Interesting isn't it? Maybe even a little disconcerting?
 
#73 ·
I quite agree. This whole thread is goofy. It's a total waste of brain power. It's like calculating what damage just one tire from a tractor trailer will do to you when, in reality, there is a whole truck attached to that one tire.

It's the same with buckshot. If, at a reasonable distance, you properly place a OO buck round in the boiler room you are going to stop that threat. There is a very high chance that the BG is going to be DRT. who cares what one pellet is doing. One pellet is never going to be alone unless you are too far or if your aim is off. Either way the shot isn't going to be in the boiler room and it won't be effective.
 
#58 ·
LOL! What a weapon that would be!

Actually it would only have to be a 7 barreled LCP. It only takes 7 .380, 94 gn rounds to have as much energy and momentum as a 9 pellet 00 low recoil round.
 
#57 ·
Well I have seen first hand what buckshot and the wad will do at short range. IMO, one of the best weapons for use in a jungle environment.
 
#61 ·
But it has No real mass and will not do this. It would bounce off. Steel door 380 at 21 feet. That is where it came out and it went through a 7/16 plywood sheet after that.
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#68 ·
Most, if not all, of the departments I do any work with are using 00 buck. Many are using Hornady. My time is spent on carbines and handguns when it comes to that stuff, so it's just a general observation.

Remember guys, this is just. A discussion about what one single pellet compares too. Seems that many are reading a bit too deep into it.

Like I said before, many suggest that 00 buck is like 9 to 12 9mm bullets being fired at you, while that's not really the case.
 
#71 ·
Most, if not all, of the departments I do any work with are using 00 buck. Many are using Hornady.
Hmmm, if they're using Hornady TAP low recoil, it's so low recoil it won't cycle a Benelli M2, and M2's cycle pretty low power loads.

...Remember guys, this is just. A discussion about what one single pellet compares to...
That's true. The real point of the thread is that the penetrative ability of 9 pellet 00 buckshot loads is limited to the energy and momentum of a single pellet, not the power of the whole load.

The steel door is such an excellent example. The load as a whole might be able to defeat the door latch because of energy and momentum transfer, i.e. literally bust the door open without actually penetrating the door. But if you wanted to shoot through the door, that is a function of the energy and momentum of a single pellet, and all the pellets have the same energy and momentum. So if one pellet won't penetrate, none of the others will either.

I think the lesson here is that if you want to shoot through a barrier, a 9mm handgun will penetrate much better than 00 buckshot. After all, according to Smitty, and I agree with his observations, even a .380 will penetrate more than 00 buckshot.

It's just something to keep tucked away in one's mind. If you need hard barrier penetration, you may be better off to use something besides 00 buckshot.

...Like I said before, many suggest that 00 buck is like 9 to 12 9mm bullets being fired at you, while that's not really the case.
Right on. :yup:

You still haven't PM'd me???
 
#70 ·
Distance is the key with a shot gun. We had loads that were designed to take door latches and hinges off. They work very well. However you were right on the the thing. You did not shoot them from 20 feet. I never got a chance to shoot the things rank has it's disadvantages also. I did see how well they worked.
The military has limited use for shot guns for a reason, their use is limited.
I have one in the room for home defense right now and am darn sure it will do the job. But if the distances were any farther I would lose some of the confidence.
OO or OOO may go through the same door if it was close Not sure I want to try it that close straight on. But I would bet it would not at 21 feet.
I have seen a lot of deer take with 12ga rifled slugs at 100 yards by good shooters.
 
#72 ·
Be the math as it may, I have 3 rounds of buck in the tube, then three fragmenting slugs. I'll get the job done.
 
#83 ·
Very interesting numbers but it seems to me that you are comparing apples to oranges or something else that is not really comparable. If I shot a target with a 12 ga. and only one pellet hit, I would consider that a miss. The point of using a shotgun is to try and hit with all pellets. The wide shotgun pattern makes accuracy easier than say using a .380 which could very likely miss the target all together.
 
#84 ·
Interestingly related YouTube Video.

This person shoots all sorts of strange things out of his shotgun including Silly Putty slugs :biggrin2:

But, this load of shotgun pellets bound together with wax during flight would be one that is applicable to this thread since the pellets stay together right up until impact.
So basically it is loosely bound together 12 gauge fragmentation slug.

 
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#86 ·
Interestingly related YouTube Video.

This person shoots all sorts of strange things out of his shotgun including Silly Putty slugs :biggrin2:

But, this load of shotgun pellets bound together with wax during flight would be one that is applicable to this thread since the pellets stay together right up until impact.
So basically it is loosely bound together 12 gauge fragmentation slug.
No doubt there are ways to force the pellets to work close to a whole. But when we do that, we are no longer talking about the normal spread of shot, nor the effect of pellets working independently of each other.

There are basically threee effects with shot, one, they work together and exhibit nearly the full energy of the load; two, they work independently of each other and exhibit only the energy level of an individually pellet; or something in between.

This thread is looking at the ballistics of pellets when they are separated far enough to act independently. E.g. we fire a 9 pellet, 00 low recoil shot at 10 yards and they strike in a 10" group. The target is presented with the full energy of the load. But, since each pellet is working independently, the penetrative power is a function of individual pellet energy and momentum. The example of the #6 shot against the car door illustrates this effect.
 
#92 ·
You guys are all off base.

We all know, and it's scientifically proven, that the mass & energy of 00 buckshot isn't what gives the shotgun it's reputation as a man stopper.

It's been proven time and again that the hyper-frequency of the metabolic microwave, produced by the auditory percussion actuated by racking the slide, causes the involuntary bowel movement of all evil persons, thus making their hasty retreat most expedient, lest they die of olefactory overload and dehydration ...


:wink:


Sent from my Galaxy S2
 
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#99 ·
I’d spend a few minutes and read this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Basically a paper on how handguns wound/incapacitate. The author and a couple studies point out that “energy” really doesn’t play that big a role in how handguns incapacitate (or OO in this case), due to the fact that at their velocities are low and the elasticity of human tissue.

It also goes on to state that the only sure way to incapacity with a handgun is hit the CNS, or major organs/arteries until the individual bleeds out. And that the temporary cavity produced by energy really doesn’t count for much: “temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic tissues”.

This is pretty much the reason why the shotgun is superior to most handgun rounds regardless of the energy of the individual projectiles. The shotgun simply has more “opportunities” to hit the CNS or enough vital stuff for the target to bleed out as long as the shot size selected has enough penetration to reach them.

Chuck
 
#100 ·
Again, this isn't about the effectiveness of a shotgun for stopping a threat. Nor is it about the effectiveness of energy stopping a threat. It is about how the 00 pellets compare to some common pistol rounds, especially the .380.
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And in a bit of a drift, just FWIW:
The contribution of energy is probably widely misunderstood because some 'experts' claim energy has no bearing on incapacitation. But energy plays a vital and even predominate role in incapacitation. E.g. if a .380 and a .308 are both 30 caliber bullets, why will one stop a deer and the other won't? Energy difference. Why is a .22 long rifle not as effective of a fight stopper as a .223? They're the same caliber, the big difference is energy.

In all fairness, I think what the 'experts' debate about energy is whether the energy contributes to incapacitation through an energy dump or shock. It has been argued both ways, but it appears that later studies and findings indicate that even handguns do produce or at least can produce remote damage. To wit:

"Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.

In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet.

It has often been asserted that hydrostatic shock and other descriptions of remote wounding effects are nothing but myths. A recent article in the journal, Neurosurgery, reviews the published evidence and concludes that the phenomenon is well-established."
 
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