Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? - Page 3

Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

This is a discussion on Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ANGLICO I can't take it anymore .................. We are comparing buckshot to rifled rounds............... Oh.......... these caliber discussions! Any gun, in a ...

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Thread: Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANGLICO View Post
    I can't take it anymore .................. We are comparing buckshot to rifled rounds............... Oh.......... these caliber discussions!

    Any gun, in a gun fight is better than a sharp stick, or knife.................... Just sayin.
    Not quite getting your meaning. We're comparing terminal ballistics of a shotgun pellet to some more familiar rounds. As a part of that it was realized how effective buckshot is without all the expansion so vital to pistol ammo, and yet any pistol ammo is more effective than a single 00 pellet - it's just for perspective.

    I don't think anyone has suggested it's a matter of a gun or no gun. Maybe you missed something.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Not quite getting your meaning. We're comparing terminal ballistics of a shotgun pellet to some more familiar rounds. As a part of that it was realized how effective buckshot is without all the expansion so vital to pistol ammo, and yet any pistol ammo is more effective than a single 00 pellet - it's just for perspective.

    I don't think anyone has suggested it's a matter of a gun or no gun. Maybe you missed something.
    I have seen, up close and personal, the effects of 00 on a human. It works! Really good, I might add, but a little messy. That is all I am saying.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I always suspected those guys killed by buckshot were faking it.
    No fake to it; a shotgun is quite effective. It's just that it does it with 9 pellets are seriously lacking in mass for penetration and the energy and momentum of a 00 pellet doesn't even come up to the terminal ballistics of a .380.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    No fake to it; a shotgun is quite effective. It's just that it does it with 9 pellets are seriously lacking in mass for penetration and the energy and momentum of a 00 pellet doesn't even come up to the terminal ballistics of a .380.
    Makes me think the .380 is perhaps more effective than many internet commandoes give it credit for.

    My personal feeling is that the effectiveness of buckshot comes from the simultaneous wounds. The body can do a pretty good job of compensating for leaks from a few holes - but buckshot makes so many holes at the same time that the body just cannot compensate.

    Maybe the best analogy would be a burst from a 7.62 x 25 subgun, like the Soviet WWII-era PPSh-41.
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    I think what is missing here is the consideration of the " stacking effect " of buck shot.

    Even at some distance, the shot is stilled clumped together and when it hits at what we think of at normal shotgun ranges, it is hitting in a clump, maybe still stacked and covers a very small area, which aids in penetration and create a smaller surface of area of impact.

    The more dispertion of the shot, the less felt impact, and thus less trauma.
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    Yes sir, Tangle. I typically say something similar when people say there are "X" number of 9mm pellets. I usually say it's closer to "X" number of 32acp FMJ's.

    Oh, I'll PM you back this evening bro.

    Stacking surely makes a difference, but it's likely that it's still not equal to the 9 or 12 9mm's many like to suggest.
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  7. #37
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    You will probably think that this VIDEO is pretty interesting Tangle.
    I watched it a while back and just now found it again.



    I think that one of the reasons why the shotgun is so effective is that the impact results in the energy of multiple simultaneous adjacent wound channels crashing into one another inside of the body which is incredibly destructive to tissue, muscle, and organs.

    I'm not sure that I said that in the best way possible but, my brain is not 100% today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Yes sir, Tangle. I typically say something similar when people say there are "X" number of 9mm pellets. I usually say it's closer to "X" number of 32acp FMJ's.
    That's pretty close in diameter and energy, not so close in mass, but an excellent example. I hadn't given it a lot of thought until I realized just how anemic the individual 00 pellets are. Together they have to be a horrendous shock, but I can't see 00s having a lot of penetration, e.g. no more than 32 acp FMJs. They simply don't have the mass or energy to penetrate deeply. Still they would produce a horrible wound and probably trauma to the point of quick incapacitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Stacking surely makes a difference, but it's likely that it's still not equal to the 9 or 12 9mm's many like to suggest.
    It's a '9 mm' in approximate size only. A 00 pellet is essentially a 9mm ball that weighs 54 gns traveling at about 1200 fps.

    I think stacking would make some difference if a bunch of pellets stacked, but two stacked 00s still don't have a combined mass of a 115 gn 9mm.

    I mentioned in an early post that the threat was far enough away so the pellet spread would be such that no two pellets 'stack'. Not that they don't, but I was just considering the hit of nine individual hits.

    It seems to me, the effectiveness of 00 is due to a relatively shallow, but massive wound from simultaneous hits. While individually they don't have the mass and energy to penetrate deeply as we normally think of deep, there is the shock from the simultaneous hits of the all the pellets. That's a bunch of energy and mass busting the human body. It has to traumatize the body severely.
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  9. #39
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    Tangle, I have killed running deer ( chased by dogs) with 00 buck. It penetrates and knocks them down. I have used #4 buck also. It works but usually needed a follow up shot. But I was using hi brass hi velocity shells not those wimpy low powed LE loads. I think you are wrong on your assumption. Me suspects you may have been into the eggnog early. LOL
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    Tangle, I have killed running deer ( chased by dogs) with 00 buck. It penetrates and knocks them down. I have used #4 buck also. It works but usually needed a follow up shot. But I was using hi brass hi velocity shells not those wimpy low powed LE loads. I think you are wrong on your assumption. Me suspects you may have been into the eggnog early. LOL
    You're comparing high velocity loads to low recoil which is what this thread has focused on. So sure, a more powerful round would be more effective. But what we're really talking about is SD.

    Here's something to consider: how much penetration in a deer would you get from a 9mm round consisting of 54 gn, ball bullet traveling at 1145 fps? Not much right? Well that's exactly what you have in a 00 low recoil round. Adding rounds will not increase penetration, how could more rounds make one round penetrate more than if there hadn't been more rounds?

    Another thing you're overlooking is the accumulative effect of the whole load hitting simultaneously. Where penetration may be marginal, shock would be maximized. The penetration would be adequate to cause a lot of bleeding and pretty quick incapacitation.

    Nobody is saying 00 buck is not effective, I'm just pointing out the individual pellets are quite anemic. Some equate 9 pellet 00 as the equivalent of 9, 9 mm hits - it is not. The 9 00 pellets, all of them, would have far less energy and momentum than 9 9mm shots.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    You will probably think that this VIDEO is pretty interesting Tangle.
    I watched it a while back and just now found it again.

    I think that one of the reasons why the shotgun is so effective is that the impact results in the energy of multiple simultaneous adjacent wound channels crashing into one another inside of the body which is incredibly destructive to tissue, muscle, and organs.

    I'm not sure that I said that in the best way possible but, my brain is not 100% today.
    Amazing video. I'm not so sure I agree with their conclusions - that 000 blew the thing every which way!
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    My HD shotgun is semi-auto and I can easily shoot 3 times at a target. That's 27 .33 caliber balls into the target. Excuse me, it's no longer a target, it's a sieve. Each trigger pull is either 9 or 12 balls of 00 buck. All hitting at the same time. Very convincing firepower for home defense. BTW, the .380 holds 7 rounds and so does my 12 ga.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKflorida View Post
    My HD shotgun is semi-auto and I can easily shoot 3 times at a target. That's 27 .33 caliber balls into the target. Excuse me, it's no longer a target, it's a sieve. Each trigger pull is either 9 or 12 balls of 00 buck. All hitting at the same time. Very convincing firepower for home defense. BTW, the .380 holds 7 rounds and so does my 12 ga.
    The firepower of a shotgun has never been in question, we all know that. A shotgun with a competent operator can probably put more firepower on a threat/threat area per unit time than a submachine gun firing 600 rounds per minute.

    That doesn't change the fact that the power of a pellet 00 pellet of a low recoil round, has less energy and momentum than a .380. That addresses the potential penetration ability of the round, not the effectiveness of the round as a whole.
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  14. #44
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    Mine is loaded with standard OOO buck loads. I suppose if I wanted to I could shoot deer from my bedroom window, but I think the neighbors might object.

    BTW: If after reading all of this anyone wants to give their shotguns away, I accept donations.

  15. #45
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    Tangle, All of my SD ammo is full power. Reduced power loads may be easy on the shoulder but they are not as effective as full power loads. One does not use .38 target ammo for self defense unless they have nothing else or that is all they can handle. Instead of using a 12 guage with LE loads one may do better by going down to a 16 or 20 guage which "kicks" less. The LE loads are because the officers said full power loads recoil too much for them. Shooting at something live you never feel the recoil. Merry Christmas.
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