Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? - Page 4

Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

This is a discussion on Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Yup (to the original question), and While the bullet is rotating at 100k rpm, it's only in a BG for 1/3200 sec. Buckshot gets deformed ...

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Thread: Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Yup (to the original question), and

    While the bullet is rotating at 100k rpm, it's only in a BG for 1/3200 sec. Buckshot gets deformed in the barrel and doesn't penetrate as well as a FMJ 32 ACP. A 70 gr .223 bullet will expand or fragment. Every projectile has a little lawyer attached to it.


  2. #47
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    Wow. This has turned into a fun thread.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    My impression is that low-recoil loads are recommended because they allow a faster follow-up shot. There're few scenarios where a full-power load would be useful but a low-recoil load didn't deliver; but if you miss with either, you need a follow-up shot pdq
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    My impression is that low-recoil loads are recommended because they allow a faster follow-up shot. There're few scenarios where a full-power load would be useful but a low-recoil load didn't deliver; but if you miss with either, you need a follow-up shot pdq
    I agree. And, it's not like LE or low recoil loads aren't effective, they are effective. We've had at least one police officer that has seen the effectiveness of low recoil rounds on both humans and big dogs.

    My purpose of the thread was not to question the effectiveness of 12 ga low recoil rounds, but simply to point out some irony of the 00 load.

    One thing I'm wondering about now is the penetration factor. After watching the video link provided by QKShooter, it appears that non-expanding projectiles penetrate much deeper than we might think. Or another way to say it is non-expanding projectiles take much less energy to penetrate sufficiently.

    We know a 115 gn FMJ 9mm can go all the way through someone. However the 9mm has 2.5 times more energy and over twice the mass of a 00 pellet, and I would think the low energy and mass of the 00 buckshot would seriously limit its ability to penetrate. But maybe not. We do know the 12 ga 00 buckshot is an effective threat stopper even with low recoil rounds.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    Tangle, All of my SD ammo is full power. Reduced power loads may be easy on the shoulder but they are not as effective as full power loads. One does not use .38 target ammo for self defense unless they have nothing else or that is all they can handle.
    Low recoil is not a target load. LEOs commonly use low recoil loads. Some low recoil loads are more effective than others, but low recoil works.

    Not as effective on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    ...Instead of using a 12 guage with LE loads one may do better by going down to a 16 or 20 guage which "kicks" less.
    Why would a 16 or 20 gauge kick less than a full 12 ga load? If it kicks less, it is a lesser load regardless of gauge. Why would a 16 or 20 gauge be any more effective than low recoil 12 gauge? It wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    ...The LE loads are because the officers said full power loads recoil too much for them. Shooting at something live you never feel the recoil. Merry Christmas.
    Full power 12 ga loads do have substantial recoil and there is definitely question if that much power is needed to stop a human being. Full power loads are hard to control for fast followup shots, say at the second threat. You do feel recoil in 'live' fire. You may not be aware of it, but the effects of heavy recoil are still there and produce heavy recoil results. I've heard hunters talk about shock absorbers help reduce soreness in their shoulders when shooting full power loads.

    The shotgun will move more, it will be harder to control, it can affect balance if everything isn't just right and it can affect the shooter's visual orientation momentarily.
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  6. #51
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    Good science/ballistic information, thanks for posting. No arguments from me.

    Aside from that, we all agree it is a good weapon. I think of the shotgun as a "weapon of mass underwear disruption". Surely it would win in the intimidating category.
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  7. #52
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    These types of talks always bring me back to thinking about the PDX1-type shells. On paper, I quite like the idea. I feel very mall-ninja when I think about buying them, though.

    So, what's the real point of the 12" gel test? Sufficient power to hit the CNS from a variety of angles? Buckshot may not get to 12", but each wound channel individually runs the odds of hitting something useful or vital to your opponent. Would you rather one .38" hole go all the way through, or 2 holes go 2/3rs of the way through? It really depends on how critical that last third was, hey?
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  8. #53
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    I guess it's really all a moot point since they are not fired one pellet at a time and they have devastating effects on human tissue.
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  9. #54
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that the power of a pellet 00 pellet of a low recoil round, has less energy and momentum than a .380. That addresses the potential penetration ability of the round, not the effectiveness of the round as a whole.


    Then why even bring it up?



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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    ...Would you rather one .38" hole go all the way through, or 2 holes go 2/3rs of the way through? It really depends on how critical that last third was, hey?
    That's the point. Each 00 low recoil pellet has less penetration power than a .380. Is that enough? Apparently it is. Low recoil 12 ga is known to be an effective fight stopper. It's just surprising to realize a 00 pellet is not even equivalent to a .380 FMJ.

    I guess we could think of this like this: Suppose we have 7 persons shooting .380 autos. The reason for 7 is that's all it takes to match the energy level of a 9 pellet 00 low recoil load. So if the 7 persons fire 7 .380s at the same time and hit the threat at the same time. That would impart the same energy and slightly more momentum to the threat as a 12 ga. 9 pellet 00 low recoil round.

    Interesting isn't it? Maybe even a little disconcerting?
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  11. #56
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    I agree that a 00 pellet is a wimpy .380 ACP at best, but the fun thing is that the 12-gauge 00-buckshot load is proof that a nine-barreled Ruger LCP would have hellacious stopping power. :D

    Ruger can get right on that.
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  12. #57
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    Well I have seen first hand what buckshot and the wad will do at short range. IMO, one of the best weapons for use in a jungle environment.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    I agree that a 00 pellet is a wimpy .380 ACP at best, but the fun thing is that the 12-gauge 00-buckshot load is proof that a nine-barreled Ruger LCP would have hellacious stopping power. :D

    Ruger can get right on that.
    LOL! What a weapon that would be!

    Actually it would only have to be a 7 barreled LCP. It only takes 7 .380, 94 gn rounds to have as much energy and momentum as a 9 pellet 00 low recoil round.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckusaret View Post
    Well I have seen first hand what buckshot and the wad will do first hand at short range. IMO, one of the best weapons for use in a jungle environment.
    Don't leave us hanging - I've wondered for a long time what the wadding would do???
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  15. #60
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    An interesting thread in that the conversation has expanded to discuss some factors that have never been presented here.
    All good food for thought.
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