Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

This is a discussion on Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; But it has No real mass and will not do this. It would bounce off. Steel door 380 at 21 feet. That is where it ...

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Thread: Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    But it has No real mass and will not do this. It would bounce off. Steel door 380 at 21 feet. That is where it came out and it went through a 7/16 plywood sheet after that.
    Door380 (1).JPG

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    But it has No real mass and will not do this. It would bounce off. Steel door 380 at 21 feet. That is where it came out and it went through a 7/16 plywood sheet after that.
    Door380 (1).JPG
    I'm lost? What has no real mass? What bounces?
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I'm lost? What has no real mass? What bounces?
    Of course it has some mass but just so little. One pellet will not come close to the wound a 380 would do and it sure would not go through both sides of a steel door and 7/16 ply wood at 21 feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Of course it has some mass but just so little. One pellet will not come close to the wound a 380 would do and it sure would not go through both sides of a steel door and 7/16 ply wood at 21 feet.
    You missed my intent, Smitty. I think you're right on! I just wanted you to confirm your meaning before I commented.

    Before I continue, let me capsulize what Smitty is saying. He's saying a .380 went through a steel door and then through a 7/16" piece of plywood. Further he's saying that a 12 ga 00 pellets will not penetrate the door. While I would like to see a picture that confirms that, it is quite reasonable and agrees with the physics involved.

    This actually emphasizes the point behind this thread - 00 buckshot lacks penetration power because each pellet acts alone, and the power of each pellet power is quite low. It's kind of like 9 of us trying to push a big truck, together we can, but individually we are wimpy compared to the whole. That's what's going on with 00 buck, each pellet is only driven by one ninth of the energy and momentum of the full load. Even though the full load dumps a bunch of energy on the door, as far as penetration is concerned, each pellet acts alone (barring a stacking effect) and simply doesn't have enough energy and momentum to force it through the steel.

    Although, I'm a bit surprised 00 wouldn't penetrate the steel door, the point remains, even though the 9 pellets together can be devastating, the performance of an individual pellet is pretty poor.
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    It is ironic how on paper the 00 buck performs so poorly, but in reality it is devastating how much damage it really does.
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    Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

    Most law Enforcement uses #4 Buck , or at least did. Here is a good overview of the testing of it by Federal.


    http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%...%2023MAR11.pdf

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    As Stan Laurel would say... "I'm glad we've had this little discussion"...

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    Most, if not all, of the departments I do any work with are using 00 buck. Many are using Hornady. My time is spent on carbines and handguns when it comes to that stuff, so it's just a general observation.

    Remember guys, this is just. A discussion about what one single pellet compares too. Seems that many are reading a bit too deep into it.

    Like I said before, many suggest that 00 buck is like 9 to 12 9mm bullets being fired at you, while that's not really the case.
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    I thought law enforcement used 00 because it was necessary to regularly get through windshields?
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    Distance is the key with a shot gun. We had loads that were designed to take door latches and hinges off. They work very well. However you were right on the the thing. You did not shoot them from 20 feet. I never got a chance to shoot the things rank has it's disadvantages also. I did see how well they worked.
    The military has limited use for shot guns for a reason, their use is limited.
    I have one in the room for home defense right now and am darn sure it will do the job. But if the distances were any farther I would lose some of the confidence.
    OO or OOO may go through the same door if it was close Not sure I want to try it that close straight on. But I would bet it would not at 21 feet.
    I have seen a lot of deer take with 12ga rifled slugs at 100 yards by good shooters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Most, if not all, of the departments I do any work with are using 00 buck. Many are using Hornady.
    Hmmm, if they're using Hornady TAP low recoil, it's so low recoil it won't cycle a Benelli M2, and M2's cycle pretty low power loads.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Remember guys, this is just. A discussion about what one single pellet compares to...
    That's true. The real point of the thread is that the penetrative ability of 9 pellet 00 buckshot loads is limited to the energy and momentum of a single pellet, not the power of the whole load.

    The steel door is such an excellent example. The load as a whole might be able to defeat the door latch because of energy and momentum transfer, i.e. literally bust the door open without actually penetrating the door. But if you wanted to shoot through the door, that is a function of the energy and momentum of a single pellet, and all the pellets have the same energy and momentum. So if one pellet won't penetrate, none of the others will either.

    I think the lesson here is that if you want to shoot through a barrier, a 9mm handgun will penetrate much better than 00 buckshot. After all, according to Smitty, and I agree with his observations, even a .380 will penetrate more than 00 buckshot.

    It's just something to keep tucked away in one's mind. If you need hard barrier penetration, you may be better off to use something besides 00 buckshot.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Like I said before, many suggest that 00 buck is like 9 to 12 9mm bullets being fired at you, while that's not really the case.
    Right on.

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    Be the math as it may, I have 3 rounds of buck in the tube, then three fragmenting slugs. I'll get the job done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I guess it's really all a moot point since they are not fired one pellet at a time and they have devastating effects on human tissue.
    I quite agree. This whole thread is goofy. It's a total waste of brain power. It's like calculating what damage just one tire from a tractor trailer will do to you when, in reality, there is a whole truck attached to that one tire.

    It's the same with buckshot. If, at a reasonable distance, you properly place a OO buck round in the boiler room you are going to stop that threat. There is a very high chance that the BG is going to be DRT. who cares what one pellet is doing. One pellet is never going to be alone unless you are too far or if your aim is off. Either way the shot isn't going to be in the boiler room and it won't be effective.
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    I've always liked the 3" mag loaded with #4 buck. That's 41 pellets (.25 caliber) and it ain't no wimp load either :)

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I quite agree. This whole thread is goofy. It's a total waste of brain power. It's like calculating what damage just one tire from a tractor trailer will do to you when, in reality, there is a whole truck attached to that one tire.

    It's the same with buckshot. If, at a reasonable distance, you properly place a OO buck round in the boiler room you are going to stop that threat. There is a very high chance that the BG is going to be DRT. who cares what one pellet is doing. One pellet is never going to be alone unless you are too far or if your aim is off. Either way the shot isn't going to be in the boiler room and it won't be effective.
    Then you clearly don't understand the point of the thread. It has nothing to do with a threat being hit with one pellet. That hasn't even been mentioned. It's not about the effectiveness of a shotgun stopping a threat.

    The thread points out some misconceptions and realities about buckshot. E.g. just like Smitty pointed out, if you have a threat behind a steel door, you'd be better off to draw a .380 and shoot through the door; the 00 buckshot won't penetrate it because the energy and momentum of each individual pellet is too low. That's the significance of understanding the ballistics of one pellet.
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