Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

This is a discussion on Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Tangle LOL - you just can't escape physics. Have fun with the Bumble Bee....

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Thread: Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    LOL - you just can't escape physics.
    Have fun with the Bumble Bee.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I quite agree. This whole thread is goofy. It's a total waste of brain power. It's like calculating what damage just one tire from a tractor trailer will do to you when, in reality, there is a whole truck attached to that one tire....
    Not always, and a great deal of damage...back to topic.
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    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Have fun with the Bumble Bee.
    "According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beats per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. The origin of this claim has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly..."

    "The calculations that purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Then you clearly don't understand the point of the thread. It has nothing to do with a threat being hit with one pellet. That hasn't even been mentioned. It's not about the effectiveness of a shotgun stopping a threat.

    The thread points out some misconceptions and realities about buckshot. E.g. just like Smitty pointed out, if you have a threat behind a steel door, you'd be better off to draw a .380 and shoot through the door; the 00 buckshot won't penetrate it because the energy and momentum of each individual pellet is too low. That's the significance of understanding the ballistics of one pellet.
    You Sir, normally put out a good product so I'm certainly not going to bash you. I do disagree and here is my line of thought on the matter.

    If I had a threat behind a steel door I'd be better off to flee. In a situation where I couldn't flee I'd let the steel door do it's job, IE stop the threat via barrier.

    If I ABSOLUTELY had to shoot the threat through the steel door then I would get closer. Anyone who thinks a 00 buck round will not penetrate a steel door better that a .380 is deluding themselves. It's not just one pellet, it's the whole can of whoop ass that gets the job done.

    I have shot 00 buck through both sides of 55 gallon drums more times than I can count. Not the low recoil stuff though. Each pellet goes through both sides at 20 yards or less.
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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...Anyone who thinks a 00 buck round will not penetrate a steel door better that a .380 is deluding themselves. It's not just one pllet, it's the whole can of whoop ass that gets the job done.
    This is the very thing I am trying to debunk. 'We' think, erroneously so, that because a shotgun is so powerful, that each pellet carries that awesome power. It does not! The individual pellets, do not have the energy or momentum of the full load. Each individual pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380.

    Think about it, a 54 gn pellet traveling at 1145 fps has half the mass, considerably less energy, and less momentum than a .380 ball ammo, reference Federal American Eagle. The fallacy is in thinking each pellet is driven by or somehow 'enhanced' the total power - that cannot be. If each pellet were driven by the total power, what would the sum of the 9 pellets come to?

    OTOH, if the total energy, about 1457 ft-lbs equally divides over 9 pellets, each pellet only has about 157 ft-lbs of energy. That's really anemic, and just because there are 9 such pellets with the same energy doesn't increase the ballistics of an individual pellet.

    Here's a quote from a test from the BoxOfTruth:
    "The buckshot [Remington 9 pellet 00 full power] essentially performed like several slow 9mm rounds, penetrating a single door, but being stopped somewhere in the passenger."

    Notice he said, "...several slow 9mm rounds..." Exactly what I've been saying and predicting except I've been comparing to .380. A .380. has 203 ft-lbs of energy, or 30% more energy than a 00 pellet and twice the mass. Penetration is only driven by the ballistics of the individual pellet, not the full energy of the round.

    What is confusing is how impressive the collective load is but at the same time the ballistics of the individual pellets are not all that impressive. Together they are awesome, but when it comes to penetration, penetration is a function of the ballistics of the pellet, not the whole load.
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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    This is the very thing I am trying to debunk. 'We' think, erroneously so, that because a shotgun is so powerful, that each pellet carries that awesome power. It does not! The individual pellets, do not have the energy or momentum of the full load. Each individual pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380.

    Think about it, a 54 gn pellet traveling at 1145 fps neither has half the mass, considerably less energy, and less momentum than a .380 ball ammo, reference Federal American Eagle. The fallacy is in thinking each pellet is driven by or somehow 'enhanced' the total power - that cannot be. If each pellet were driven by the total power, what would the sum of the 9 pellets come to?

    OTOH, if the total energy, about 1457 ft-lbs equally divides over 9 pellets, each pellet only has about 157 ft-lbs of energy. That's really anemic, and just because there are 9 such pellets with the same energy doesn't increase the ballistics of an individual pellet.

    Here's a quote from a test from the BoxOfTruth:
    "The buckshot [Remington 9 pellet 00 full power] essentially performed like several slow 9mm rounds, penetrating a single door, but being stopped somewhere in the passenger."

    Notice he said, "...several slow 9mm rounds..." Exactly what I've been saying and predicting except I've been comparing to .380. A .380. has 203 ft-lbs of energy, or 30% more energy than a 00 pellet and twice the mass. Penetration is only driven by the ballistics of the individual pellet, not the full energy of the round.

    What is confusing is how impressive the collective load is but at the same time the ballistics of the individual pellets are not all that impressive. Together they are awesome, but when it comes to penetration, penetration is a function of the ballistics of the pellet, not the whole load.
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I have seen with my own two eyes OO buck penetrate steel that is thicker than a steel door. So my conclusion is that somewhere in your physics problem you are missing something. Could it be the stacking effect? Could it be that you and I are talking about two different distances from the door? Your distance allows for a much greater spread while mine is much tighter? I just don't know, but we are missing something. Perhaps my brain just isn't up to full speed today and I'm not following your logic.
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    Sounds like a job for real Science!

    The effect of early pellets hitting 'close enough' could also weaken or distort the metal sufficiently to allow stragglers to get on through.
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    Very interesting numbers but it seems to me that you are comparing apples to oranges or something else that is not really comparable. If I shot a target with a 12 ga. and only one pellet hit, I would consider that a miss. The point of using a shotgun is to try and hit with all pellets. The wide shotgun pattern makes accuracy easier than say using a .380 which could very likely miss the target all together.

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    Interestingly related YouTube Video.

    This person shoots all sorts of strange things out of his shotgun including Silly Putty slugs

    But, this load of shotgun pellets bound together with wax during flight would be one that is applicable to this thread since the pellets stay together right up until impact.
    So basically it is loosely bound together 12 gauge fragmentation slug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I have seen with my own two eyes OO buck penetrate steel that is thicker than a steel door.
    First I'm not at all saying 00 buckshot won't penetrate some steel. But, it is not as good at it as we might think based on the awesome total power of the load. How thick was the steel you shot it through? How thick was the steel on the door Smitty saw 00s unable to penetrate? What backing did the steel on the door have? There is a difference in shooting a piece of plate steel and shooting a piece of plate steel supported by material(s) behind it. Yet, whatever the door consisted of, the .380 with through it and on through a 7/16" piece of plywood. Smitty says the 00 would not penetrate the same door. I did not see pics of that, so I'm taking his word here. I'd really like some confirmation of that. That's hard for me to accept.

    But, again, notice what the BoxOfTruth showed - "...like several slow 9mm rounds...". Slow 9mm rounds just about describes a .380. What he saw was the effect of the penetration power of the individual pellets. Whatever the full load is, each individual pellet has one ninth of that and that's all they have to get through a barrier.

    The car was a good distance away in the BoxOfTruth.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...So my conclusion is that somewhere in your physics problem you are missing something.
    My theory could be off, but we look at the mass and velocity of the pellet and see its energy and momentum is anemic, very much so compared to a 9mm pistol round. But, that's one reason for posting things like this, to get peer confirmation or denial. So if you can explain how a 54 gn pellet traveling at pistol speeds acquires power to penetrate as well as a .380 bullet with more mass, momentum and energy, I'd love to hear it. I'm open minded about this; this is to learn from.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...Could it be the stacking effect? Could it be that you and I are talking about two different distances from the door? Your distance allows for a much greater spread while mine is much tighter? I just don't know, but we are missing something. Perhaps my brain just isn't up to full speed today and I'm not following your logic.
    Stacking produces a whole different situation. When stacking occurs, we are no longer talking about an individual pellet, but the combined strength of the stacked pellets. E.g. if we're say 10" from the barrier, we're likely going to have essentially a slug effect, that's enormously different than a spread hit where no two pellets hit the same place.

    What's different?
    We don't know the thickness of the steel you shot and we don't know the thickness of the door shot. We know the steel on the door had backing behind it and what you shot was essentially sheet metal with no backing. We know that when the BoxofTruth shot the car door, is was essentially unbacked sheet metal. We know the 00 pellets stopped in the plywood where the .380 went through both sides of a steel door and went through a 7/16" plywood too. That's a huge difference, but it jives with my pellet theory.

    If the pellets were close enough to each other, the individual pellet effect would go away and some kind of collective effect would replace it. E.g. if the pellets hit in say a 2" group. That might result in a collective effect where the barrier is experiencing a much greater penetration force.

    It's no secret that when hunters want more penetration than they can get from 00, they go to the heavier 000.

    Hickok45 shot a car door with birdshot and it did not even start to penetrate the metal - I'm not sure that it did much more than blast the paint off. Our first thought might be that birdshot loads aren't as powerful as buckshot loads. But they can be depending on the specific load. So how is it that #6 birdshot with nearly the same energy as 00 buck, barely scratches a sheet metal door? The energy and momentum of those individual small pellets is far to little to do much. Even though together they represent an energy of well over 1600 ft-lbs, individually they are almost nothing.

    This illustrates the two effects of shot, be it bird or buck. Aside from stacking, shock and impact is a function of the combined load. Penetration is a function of the energy and momentum of an individual pellet. What else could explain how a total load of 1600 ft-lbs of #6 shot won't dent a sheet metal car door?

    Likewise, when the 00 pellets are isolated from one another due to spread, they are simply 9, 54 gn, 0.33" pellets traveling at 1145 fps. They are acting totally independently as far as penetration goes, but for stopping power and impact energy they are working together.
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Interestingly related YouTube Video.

    This person shoots all sorts of strange things out of his shotgun including Silly Putty slugs

    But, this load of shotgun pellets bound together with wax during flight would be one that is applicable to this thread since the pellets stay together right up until impact.
    So basically it is loosely bound together 12 gauge fragmentation slug.
    No doubt there are ways to force the pellets to work close to a whole. But when we do that, we are no longer talking about the normal spread of shot, nor the effect of pellets working independently of each other.

    There are basically threee effects with shot, one, they work together and exhibit nearly the full energy of the load; two, they work independently of each other and exhibit only the energy level of an individually pellet; or something in between.

    This thread is looking at the ballistics of pellets when they are separated far enough to act independently. E.g. we fire a 9 pellet, 00 low recoil shot at 10 yards and they strike in a 10" group. The target is presented with the full energy of the load. But, since each pellet is working independently, the penetrative power is a function of individual pellet energy and momentum. The example of the #6 shot against the car door illustrates this effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    No doubt there are ways to force the pellets to work close to a whole. But when we do that, we are no longer talking about the normal spread of shot, nor the effect of pellets working independently of each other.

    There are basically threee effects with shot, one, they work together and exhibit nearly the full energy of the load; two, they work independently of each other and exhibit only the energy level of an individually pellet; or something in between.

    This thread is looking at the ballistics of pellets when they are separated far enough to act independently. E.g. we fire a 9 pellet, 00 low recoil shot at 10 yards and they strike in a 10" group. The target is presented with the full energy of the load. But, since each pellet is working independently, the penetrative power is a function of individual pellet energy and momentum. The example of the #6 shot against the car door illustrates this effect.
    Did anyone think that each individual pellet was as effective as a 9mm or 380? I have never known anyone that thinks that. Interesting points though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Have fun with the Bumble Bee.
    Have fun with physics. :)

    "According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beats per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. The origin of this claim has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly.[35] In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes; they had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".[36]

    Some credit physicist Ludwig Prandtl (1875–1953) of the University of Göttingen in Germany with popularizing the idea. Others say it was Swiss gas dynamicist Jacob Ackeret (1898–1981) who did the calculations.

    In 1934, French entomologist Antoine Magnan (1881-1938) included the following passage in the introduction to his book Le Vol des Insectes:

    Tout d'abord poussé par ce qui se fait en aviation, j'ai appliqué aux insectes les lois de la résistance de l'air, et je suis arrivé avec M. Sainte-Laguë à cette conclusion que leur vol est impossible.

    This translates to:

    First prompted by what is done in aviation, I applied the laws of air resistance to insects, and I arrived, with Mr. Sainte-Laguë, at this conclusion that their flight is impossible.

    Magnan refers to his assistant André Sainte-Laguë, a mathematician.

    The calculations that purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.[37]

    Additionally, John Maynard Smith, a noted biologist with a strong background in aeronautics, has pointed out that bumblebees would not be expected to sustain flight, as they would need to generate too much power given their tiny wing area. However, in aerodynamics experiments with other insects he found that viscosity at the scale of small insects meant that even their small wings can move a very large volume of air relative to the size, and this reduces the power required to sustain flight by an order of magnitude.[38]

    Another description of a bee's wing function is that the wings work similarly to helicopter blades, "reverse-pitch semirotary helicopter blades".

    Bees beat their wings approximately 200 times a second. Their thorax muscles do not expand and contract on each nerve firing but rather vibrate like a plucked rubber band."

    From wiki, but there are numerous other "reputable" sources that disprove this particular bit of urban legend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    Did anyone think that each individual pellet was as effective as a 9mm or 380? I have never known anyone that thinks that. Interesting points though.
    I had never given it a thought! My perception of 00 buckshot is that it would penetrate and destroy anything in its path. Then I think it was comparing 000 to 00 buckshot after a hunter mentioned it penetrated deeper. I think that's all it took to get me started down this path.

    A 00 pellet has no where near the ballistics of a 9mm - it's not even in the ballpark. That's why I used the .380.

    Just one more time for clarity, this is not in any way suggesting that only one 00 pellet is going to hit the threat or barrier or whatever. Nor does it question the devastating stopping power of a shotgun. But given that each pellet that hits the threat or whatever, is not close enough to any other pellet to cause a supportive effect, each pellet that hits the threat has less terminal ballistics than a .380.

    So again, getting shot simultaneously with 7 .380s is equivalent in energy to 9 low recoil 00 pellets.
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  16. #90
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    Thanks OPFOR - for filling in the gaps.
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