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Do you realize that a single 00 pellet has less energy and momentum than a .380?

88K views 166 replies 63 participants last post by  Tangle 
#1 ·
Because 00 buckshot is right at 9mm in diameter, actually 0.33" vs 0.354" (9 mm), we kinda think of 9 pellet 00 buckshot being equivalent to 9, 9 mm rounds. It isn't and it isn't even close, especially when the 9 pellet 00 is low recoil. Here's why:

The total energy delivered to a threat by a 12 ga load, say Federal LE13200 reduced recoil which consists of 9 00 pellets at 1145 fps, is an impressive 1413 ft-lbs. However the energy of each individual pellet is only 157 ft-lbs. A .380 Federal American Eagle, FMJ, has 203 ft-lbs of energy. How significant is all this?

Well, if a threat is shot a distance such that each pellet strikes a different place, i.e. no two pellets strike the same place, then the work done by each pellet, which reflects the ability of the pellet to penetrate, is all you get. A 00 pellet weighs 54 gn and is traveling at 1145 fps (actually that's muzzle velocity) and is very close in diameter to a 9mm. So in a sense it would be like loading your 9 mm handgun with a 54 gn bullet with a velocity of 1145 fps. Who would pick such a round for SD? Yet, that's what each pellet of 00 buckshot is.

Even the lightest 9mm loads, say a Federal American Eagle, has a bullet weight of 115 gns (well over twice the mass of the 00), a velocity of 1180 fps, and an energy of 358 ft-lbs. So 4 shots of such a 9mm load would deliver the same total energy, actually more 1421 vs 1413, than the shotgun. Then if you compare momentum of a single pellet vs a single 115 gn American Eagle 9mm, the 9mm has over twice the momentum. Momentum is the primary effect that knocks things around, i.e. recoil and bone breaking, not the energy. That's why a .223 with about the same energy as a 12 ga shotgun doesn't have nearly the recoil - the shotgun load has far more momentum.

Even a 90 gn FMJ .380 has more energy than a single 00 pellet and has 44% more momentum.

Hmmm, I wonder if I can get a .380 shotgun? :tongue:

Another interesting thing is a single 55 gn .223 @ 3240 fps has almost as much energy as the whole 9 pellet 00 buckshot load - 1281 ft-lbs. The .223 has the same weight as an individual 00 pellet but over 8 times the energy!

Anyway, this is just something to think about when you have nothing else to do, or want to go to sleep or something. This doesn't in any way diminish the power of the shotgun, but on a pellet basis, a 00 pellet is really pretty wimpy. And unfortunately it is the mass and velocity of the pellet that does the work and makes it penetrate.
 
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#4 ·
What we truly need is a pistol round that accurately mimics the 00 pellet. That way, we can easily just do eyeballing estimates!

How about with larger buckshot? Is there anything that approaches pistol-level energy?
 
#5 ·
Well, a slug has the same energy as a 00 load and it's nearly .75 caliber.

In buckshot, 000 has a weight of 70 gns which is still less than the 90 gn .380.

It's just curious how effective buckshot purportedly is, when the individual pellets are significantly less powerful than a .380.
 
#8 ·
I understand. But this really isn't about which shotgun load is the best. It's about how single pellets compare in energy to some pistol bullets. It's a bit of a conundrum, yet who can deny the effectiveness of a shotgun with the right load?

I guess what I'm pondering here is if we question the penetrating ability of a .380, and a .380 has more energy and more momentum than a single 00 pellet, the individual pellets won't penetrate as deeply as the .380. :ticking: What does it mean?
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the link Mike; I've seen that before I think, but a good refresher.

I do agree with the tenets in the link except I believe there is reason to suspect the claim a bit about 00 penetration. As I've pointed out, an individual 00 pellet would be like loading a 9mm with a 54 gn bullet with a velocity of 1145 fps. Of course we're talking about ball here which may require much less energy to penetrate sufficiently than expanding bullets would.

Also, the concept is supported by the fact that as game gets larger/tougher, 000 seems to be the preferred load.

Also, what would be considered full power loads, i.e. 00 at 1325 fps, would be considerably more effective than low recoil at 1145 fps, but then there's the significantly increased recoil, about 16% more which is what the low recoil was suppose to help with.

It all just kinda makes you go, hmmmm???
 
#13 ·
Another interesting thing is a single 55 gn .223 @ 3240 fps has almost as much energy as the whole 9 pellet 00 buckshot load - 1281 ft-lbs. The .223 has the same weight as an individual 00 pellet but over 8 times the energy!
That is because energy goes up exponentially with an increase in velocity... smaller and faster has more energy than larger and slower.. which is part of the whole 9mm vs 45acp debate.. wrench in the machine is that the permanent wound channel is so much larger from the larger round.. obviously..

as far as handguns go, you want both big diameter rounds hitting the target at ludicrous speeds.. im talking, "they've gone to plaid!" speeds.. but you need to balance the two factors.. a 1 inch bullet at 10,000ft/s is unrealistically controllable in a handgun or a rifle really.. so we need to find the biggest round that can controllably be fired and be done so accurately at the highest fps possible.
 
#15 ·
That is because energy goes up exponentially with an increase in velocity... smaller and faster has more energy than larger and slower..
That's how I calculated the comparative figures, E = 0.5 x mass x velocity squared. But the momentum, which causes the reaction is linear with velocity.
 
#14 ·
I talked to a fella whom shot a perp with a 12 gauge. He stated "I never imagined the damage I saw that 12g do". Mentioned it nearly cut him in half, at this point I cut that topic short as he was starting relive the moment and getting a little shaky, I changed topic we finished our donuts....we always heard shots at night here and there.....one of those was this guy getting shot...
Robbery suspect fatally shot at west Fort Worth doughnut shop | Top Stories | News from...


I've moved since then to a "less risk" area.

I underestimate no bullet.
 
#23 ·
Well, each of the 00 buckshot would penetrate less than .380 FMJ. And 9 pellets from a shotgun is nowhere near the penetration and power of 9 115 gn 9mms. It only takes four 9mm rounds to exceed the total energy of the 00 pellets and each shot has far more momentum to penetrate.

It just kind of seems like the effectiveness of the shotgun comes from a number of relatively shallow penetrating pellets. Perhaps more of a shock effect than penetrating organs.
 
#21 ·
Good post but I doubt that I would be more than 5 or 6 yards away from my target and even one pellet would ruin the bad guys day, and if not, I would still have 7 more rounds to go.
 
#22 ·
Ahhh...but, if 9 people make up a firing squad and all 9 persons are armed with .380 handguns...the...READY...AIM...FIRE! should result in a decently swift termination of Life Energy.

:22a: <~~~Last Cigarette....Blindfold? :nono: ~ No Blindfold! :blink:~~~READY~AIM~FIRE!~~~~> :dead:


:biggrin2:
Suddenly...I felt a strong, uncanny, desire to create a Firing Squad scenario with Smilies.
 
#24 ·
That is real close energy wise to emptying the magazine of my Beretta 950 .25 ACP into the perp. :)
 
#25 ·
I'm not following.??? A typical .25 acp is a 50 gn bullet with a muzzle energy of 64 ft-lbs and a muzzle velocity of 760. A single 00 pellet weighs 54 gns with a muzzle energy of 157 ft-lbs - almost 2.5 times more energy and it leaves the muzzle at 1145 fps - 50% more velocity than a .25. And remember there's 9 pellets.
 
#26 ·
It is funny how effective buckshot is, isn't it? Especially when it is nothing more than a handful of smooth, round lead balls of moderate weight and velocity.

Makes you wonder if we really need those expanding, spinning, sharp little buzzsaws of death (known as JHPs) that all the ammo makers try to sell us at ridiculous prices.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm"... :scratchchin:
 
#28 ·
It is funny how effective buckshot is, isn't it? Especially when it is nothing more than a handful of smooth, round lead balls of moderate weight and velocity.
It is isn't it! I've been thinking the same thing. Especially realizing 00 buck is not even up to the .380 bullet.

...Makes you wonder if we really need those expanding, spinning, sharp little buzzsaws of death (known as JHPs) that all the ammo makers try to sell us at ridiculous prices.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm"... :scratchchin:
It does make one wonder!

And you mention another thing that I've never heard discussed. A bullet is spinning around 100,000 rpm as I recall, and when those petals expand outward, it should be a buzz saw like you alluded to. It seems like it would shred flesh, but I never hear anything about that.
 
#29 ·
I can't take it anymore .................. :blink: We are comparing buckshot to rifled rounds............... Oh.......... these caliber discussions!

Any gun, in a gun fight, is better than a sharp stick, or knife.................... Just sayin.

At least with the right shotgun, you can still beat someone to death with its mass, when you run out of shells.............. just sayin, again.


(yeah, I love shotguns!)
 
#31 ·
I can't take it anymore .................. :blink: We are comparing buckshot to rifled rounds............... Oh.......... these caliber discussions!

Any gun, in a gun fight is better than a sharp stick, or knife.................... Just sayin.
Not quite getting your meaning. We're comparing terminal ballistics of a shotgun pellet to some more familiar rounds. As a part of that it was realized how effective buckshot is without all the expansion so vital to pistol ammo, and yet any pistol ammo is more effective than a single 00 pellet - it's just for perspective.

I don't think anyone has suggested it's a matter of a gun or no gun. Maybe you missed something.
 
#35 ·
I think what is missing here is the consideration of the " stacking effect " of buck shot.

Even at some distance, the shot is stilled clumped together and when it hits at what we think of at normal shotgun ranges, it is hitting in a clump, maybe still stacked and covers a very small area, which aids in penetration and create a smaller surface of area of impact.

The more dispertion of the shot, the less felt impact, and thus less trauma.
 
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#36 ·
Yes sir, Tangle. I typically say something similar when people say there are "X" number of 9mm pellets. I usually say it's closer to "X" number of 32acp FMJ's.

Oh, I'll PM you back this evening bro.

Stacking surely makes a difference, but it's likely that it's still not equal to the 9 or 12 9mm's many like to suggest.
 
#38 ·
Yes sir, Tangle. I typically say something similar when people say there are "X" number of 9mm pellets. I usually say it's closer to "X" number of 32acp FMJ's.
That's pretty close in diameter and energy, not so close in mass, but an excellent example. I hadn't given it a lot of thought until I realized just how anemic the individual 00 pellets are. Together they have to be a horrendous shock, but I can't see 00s having a lot of penetration, e.g. no more than 32 acp FMJs. They simply don't have the mass or energy to penetrate deeply. Still they would produce a horrible wound and probably trauma to the point of quick incapacitation.

...Stacking surely makes a difference, but it's likely that it's still not equal to the 9 or 12 9mm's many like to suggest.
It's a '9 mm' in approximate size only. A 00 pellet is essentially a 9mm ball that weighs 54 gns traveling at about 1200 fps.

I think stacking would make some difference if a bunch of pellets stacked, but two stacked 00s still don't have a combined mass of a 115 gn 9mm.

I mentioned in an early post that the threat was far enough away so the pellet spread would be such that no two pellets 'stack'. Not that they don't, but I was just considering the hit of nine individual hits.

It seems to me, the effectiveness of 00 is due to a relatively shallow, but massive wound from simultaneous hits. While individually they don't have the mass and energy to penetrate deeply as we normally think of deep, there is the shock from the simultaneous hits of the all the pellets. That's a bunch of energy and mass busting the human body. It has to traumatize the body severely.
 
#37 ·
You will probably think that this VIDEO is pretty interesting Tangle.
I watched it a while back and just now found it again.



I think that one of the reasons why the shotgun is so effective is that the impact results in the energy of multiple simultaneous adjacent wound channels crashing into one another inside of the body which is incredibly destructive to tissue, muscle, and organs.

I'm not sure that I said that in the best way possible :confused: but, my brain is not 100% today.
 
#41 ·
You will probably think that this VIDEO is pretty interesting Tangle.
I watched it a while back and just now found it again.

I think that one of the reasons why the shotgun is so effective is that the impact results in the energy of multiple simultaneous adjacent wound channels crashing into one another inside of the body which is incredibly destructive to tissue, muscle, and organs.

I'm not sure that I said that in the best way possible :confused: but, my brain is not 100% today.
Amazing video. I'm not so sure I agree with their conclusions - that 000 blew the thing every which way!
 
#39 ·
Tangle, I have killed running deer ( chased by dogs) with 00 buck. It penetrates and knocks them down. I have used #4 buck also. It works but usually needed a follow up shot. But I was using hi brass hi velocity shells not those wimpy low powed LE loads. I think you are wrong on your assumption. Me suspects you may have been into the eggnog early. LOL
 
#40 ·
You're comparing high velocity loads to low recoil which is what this thread has focused on. So sure, a more powerful round would be more effective. But what we're really talking about is SD.

Here's something to consider: how much penetration in a deer would you get from a 9mm round consisting of 54 gn, ball bullet traveling at 1145 fps? Not much right? Well that's exactly what you have in a 00 low recoil round. Adding rounds will not increase penetration, how could more rounds make one round penetrate more than if there hadn't been more rounds?

Another thing you're overlooking is the accumulative effect of the whole load hitting simultaneously. Where penetration may be marginal, shock would be maximized. The penetration would be adequate to cause a lot of bleeding and pretty quick incapacitation.

Nobody is saying 00 buck is not effective, I'm just pointing out the individual pellets are quite anemic. Some equate 9 pellet 00 as the equivalent of 9, 9 mm hits - it is not. The 9 00 pellets, all of them, would have far less energy and momentum than 9 9mm shots.
 
#42 ·
My HD shotgun is semi-auto and I can easily shoot 3 times at a target. That's 27 .33 caliber balls into the target. Excuse me, it's no longer a target, it's a sieve. Each trigger pull is either 9 or 12 balls of 00 buck. All hitting at the same time. Very convincing firepower for home defense. BTW, the .380 holds 7 rounds and so does my 12 ga.
 
#43 ·
The firepower of a shotgun has never been in question, we all know that. A shotgun with a competent operator can probably put more firepower on a threat/threat area per unit time than a submachine gun firing 600 rounds per minute.

That doesn't change the fact that the power of a pellet 00 pellet of a low recoil round, has less energy and momentum than a .380. That addresses the potential penetration ability of the round, not the effectiveness of the round as a whole.
 
G
#44 ·
Mine is loaded with standard OOO buck loads. I suppose if I wanted to I could shoot deer from my bedroom window, but I think the neighbors might object.

BTW: If after reading all of this anyone wants to give their shotguns away, I accept donations. :wave:
 
#45 ·
Tangle, All of my SD ammo is full power. Reduced power loads may be easy on the shoulder but they are not as effective as full power loads. One does not use .38 target ammo for self defense unless they have nothing else or that is all they can handle. Instead of using a 12 guage with LE loads one may do better by going down to a 16 or 20 guage which "kicks" less. The LE loads are because the officers said full power loads recoil too much for them. Shooting at something live you never feel the recoil. Merry Christmas.
 
#50 ·
Tangle, All of my SD ammo is full power. Reduced power loads may be easy on the shoulder but they are not as effective as full power loads. One does not use .38 target ammo for self defense unless they have nothing else or that is all they can handle.
Low recoil is not a target load. LEOs commonly use low recoil loads. Some low recoil loads are more effective than others, but low recoil works.

Not as effective on what?

...Instead of using a 12 guage with LE loads one may do better by going down to a 16 or 20 guage which "kicks" less.
Why would a 16 or 20 gauge kick less than a full 12 ga load? If it kicks less, it is a lesser load regardless of gauge. Why would a 16 or 20 gauge be any more effective than low recoil 12 gauge? It wouldn't.

...The LE loads are because the officers said full power loads recoil too much for them. Shooting at something live you never feel the recoil. Merry Christmas.
Full power 12 ga loads do have substantial recoil and there is definitely question if that much power is needed to stop a human being. Full power loads are hard to control for fast followup shots, say at the second threat. You do feel recoil in 'live' fire. You may not be aware of it, but the effects of heavy recoil are still there and produce heavy recoil results. I've heard hunters talk about shock absorbers help reduce soreness in their shoulders when shooting full power loads.

The shotgun will move more, it will be harder to control, it can affect balance if everything isn't just right and it can affect the shooter's visual orientation momentarily.
 
#46 ·
Yup (to the original question), and

While the bullet is rotating at 100k rpm, it's only in a BG for 1/3200 sec. Buckshot gets deformed in the barrel and doesn't penetrate as well as a FMJ 32 ACP. A 70 gr .223 bullet will expand or fragment. Every projectile has a little lawyer attached to it.
 
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