Can someone give me a few talking points ?

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Thread: Can someone give me a few talking points ?

  1. #1
    Member Array SteveB2175's Avatar
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    Can someone give me a few talking points ?

    Hi,

    I own several handguns, but I don't know much about rifles. With all the current controversy about asault rifles I would like to be able to answer some of the comments I hear from the anti's I work with.

    Question: What is the definition of an asault rifle ? is it the magazine, grip, or something else ?

    Question: Is an asault rifle more deadly than other rifle types ? In other words, is the effort to ban asault rifles foolish because another rifle type will accomplish the same as an asault rifle ?

    Question: Related to extended mags, does the military use extended mags ? If not, why not ? Do they jam, are they a tactically poor choice ?

    Thanks for any answers to these questions !!

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  3. #2
    Member Array slidewayz240's Avatar
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    Question 1: There is no such thing as an "assault rifle" Assault is an action, not an adjective. It is a made up word in politics to make normal rifles sound mean and scary.

    Question 2: First refer to answer 1. And no, all rifles are deadly when in the hands of people that have the intent of using them in a deadly manner.

    Question 3: We used standard magazines (30 rounds) Sometimes they jam, but that's lots of use. Other than that, I have never seen a 60 round, 100 round or any other magazine like that used in today's military. Bigger weapons mean to lay down suppressive fire such as the 249B use belt fed magazines as well as crew serve weapons like the M2 or Mk19.

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    dont know the "true" definition of an assault rifle, but i do own a couple of AR15's... mine are used for home defense and for fun.. for hunting there are better choices out there. i think the debate issue is mostly high cap. mags. as compaired to the hunting rifle. i have several 30 round mags for my ARs. if i wanted to, i could kill a whole lot of children with any type of weapon... the "left" needs something to band, so i guess assult rifles and high cap mags are a good place to start.. seems to me that another law would only be for the law bidding citizen.. just saying.

    virg

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveB2175 View Post
    Hi,

    I own several handguns, but I don't know much about rifles. With all the current controversy about asault rifles I would like to be able to answer some of the comments I hear from the anti's I work with.

    Question: What is the definition of an asault rifle ? is it the magazine, grip, or something else ?

    Question: Is an asault rifle more deadly than other rifle types ? In other words, is the effort to ban asault rifles foolish because another rifle type will accomplish the same as an asault rifle ?

    Question: Related to extended mags, does the military use extended mags ? If not, why not ? Do they jam, are they a tactically poor choice ?

    Thanks for any answers to these questions !!
    1. Look here for the American military's definition of "assault rifle" - GunFax.com - the unofficial Calico fan site and Rockin' Rimfires
    Be aware that the anti-gunners' approach to defining "assault rifles" is based on cosmetic features and not functional ones. Google "Carolyn McCarthy barrel shroud" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    2. An assault rifle is no more deadly than any other rifle; I could probably do as much damage with my lever-action .30-30. My WWII-vintage M-1 Garand does a LOT more damage with its .30-06 round, and it is clearly NOT an "assault rifle".

    3. Depends on what you mean by "extended." The standard mil magazine for the M-16/M-4 series these days has a nominal 30-round capacity. If they were prone to jamming or were a poor tactical choice, I doubt they'd be standard issue for very long. Yes, the mags can 'jam' internally due to tilting followers or damage, and mags do deteriorate with use so they can cause the weapons to misfeed.
    Smitty
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    I'll just stick with point #1 because the others have been answered pretty well already.

    An "Assault Rifle" is a rifle chambered in an intermediate sized cartridge (smaller and with less power/recoil than a full sized cartridge) and is a select fire weapon capable of semi auto and full auto fire. The first assault rifle (and the term) was invented by the Germans late in World War Two. The idea was to bridge the gap between a full size rifle and a sub machine gun. A rifle is great at long range engagements and a sub machine gun is great up close. Neither works very well in the others role. A rifle is too long, too heavy and too slow in close quarters and a sub gun lacks the power and range in the open (it fires a pistol round).

    So the Germans came up with a cross between the two. It was called the Sturmgewehr 44. "Sturm" translates directly in English to the word "storm" as in "storm the castle" or "storm that enemy position". Assault is synonymous with storm in this usage. "Gewerhr" directly translate to English as the word rifle. So the Germans new weapon was actually named "assault rifle model 44".

    This is where we get the term. So your talking points should focus on the fact that a true assault rifle is by definition capable of fully automatic fire and they are already illegal. Also the assault rifles shoot a lower power round than a full sized rifle. The 5.56 Nato and 7.62X39 rounds are much, much less powerful than what most deer hunters carry into the woods each fall.

    stg44_7019.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveB2175 View Post
    Hi,

    I own several handguns, but I don't know much about rifles. With all the current controversy about asault rifles I would like to be able to answer some of the comments I hear from the anti's I work with.

    Question: What is the definition of an asault rifle ? is it the magazine, grip, or something else ?

    Question: Is an asault rifle more deadly than other rifle types ? In other words, is the effort to ban asault rifles foolish because another rifle type will accomplish the same as an asault rifle ?

    Question: Related to extended mags, does the military use extended mags ? If not, why not ? Do they jam, are they a tactically poor choice ?

    Thanks for any answers to these questions !!
    1) If you are asking about a "legal" definition, it's whatever the law defines it to be. Sen. Feinstein's proposal broadens the definition. Assume a law is passed that states the following: "As used herein, the term "Assault Rifle" means any rifle that has one or more of the following features: Feature A; Feature B; Feature C; etc.

    So if Feature A is "Capable of firing a centerfire cartridge with a bullet caliber of .223 or greater" then any .223 or larger caliber centerfire rile is an "assault rifle." (that would be a very broad definition!)

    2) What do you mean by deadly? If on a round-per-round comparison, no. Gasmitty's example regarding the M1 Garand makes the point. Another example is a bolt action .375 H&H Magnum - deadlier per-shot than most AR style rifles, but not an assault rifle. If, on the other hand, you mean rate of fire and caliber, perhaps. But if you have a Remington 742 in .30-06, then likely the answer is no.

    3) See the answers above. I'm not ex-military, so I don't know squat about what they are doing.


    The problem with the "assualt weapons" ban is that we have no idea as to what is an "assault weapon" (or rifle) until the language of the law is actually proposed. You'll be spinning your wheels on this one.

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    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveB2175 View Post
    Hi,

    I own several handguns, but I don't know much about rifles. With all the current controversy about asault rifles I would like to be able to answer some of the comments I hear from the anti's I work with.

    Question: What is the definition of an asault rifle ? is it the magazine, grip, or something else ?

    Question: Is an asault rifle more deadly than other rifle types ? In other words, is the effort to ban asault rifles foolish because another rifle type will accomplish the same as an asault rifle ?

    Question: Related to extended mags, does the military use extended mags ? If not, why not ? Do they jam, are they a tactically poor choice ?

    Thanks for any answers to these questions !!
    1). Definition of Assault: A sudden, violent attack; onslaught: an assault on tradition. Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner.
    -So a rifle is no more of a assault weapon than a club or a stone is. Assault Rifles don't exist, there is no such thing. And don't let misguided people let you think AR15 stands for "Assault Rifle". AR is the designation from Armalite, the first ones to make the rifle.

    2). No gun is more deadly than the other. A .38 special HP to the forehead will kill you quicker than a .223 in the leg. Also there is discussion, studies and research from some that states some high brass shotgun loads such as 00 buck delivers more damage than a AR chambered in .223 can.

    3). I can't speak about our great men in women who serve this country, I don't know if they use extended magazines. I am a HK snob and I know HK doesn't approve for LEO to use their high capacity 33 round and Jet Funnel magazines. I truly can't say why. Maybe they don't use them in the military because ounces leads to pounds and pounds leads to pain.

    Don't get into a arguement with a anti-gun person. Anti gun people know nothing about guns or gun laws, they call magazines clips, they think a standard capacity magazine is a high capacity magazine and they think the "AR" in AR15 stands for assault rifle... It would be literally like arguing with a blind person about what color the sky is.

    Edit: Sorry I have posted misleading info. After doing some checking there is a definition of "Assault Rifle". My apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveB2175 View Post
    Hi,

    I own several handguns, but I don't know much about rifles. With all the current controversy about asault rifles I would like to be able to answer some of the comments I hear from the anti's I work with.

    Question: What is the definition of an asault rifle ? is it the magazine, grip, or something else ?

    Question: Is an asault rifle more deadly than other rifle types ? In other words, is the effort to ban asault rifles foolish because another rifle type will accomplish the same as an asault rifle ?

    Question: Related to extended mags, does the military use extended mags ? If not, why not ? Do they jam, are they a tactically poor choice ?

    Thanks for any answers to these questions !!
    If you don't already know the answers to those questions, you're better off (for your sake and all gun owners) if you don't try to engage in discussions about them. Going into a discussion of the possible AWB without the right facts and background knowledge is the tactic that the anti's use.
    "Thank you for the advice Mr. Vice President, but I'll be keeping my AR15 for defending my home and family."

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slidewayz240 View Post
    Question 1: There is no such thing as an "assault rifle" Assault is an action, not an adjective. It is a made up word in politics to make normal rifles sound mean and scary.

    Question 2: First refer to answer 1. And no, all rifles are deadly when in the hands of people that have the intent of using them in a deadly manner.

    Question 3: We used standard magazines (30 rounds) Sometimes they jam, but that's lots of use. Other than that, I have never seen a 60 round, 100 round or any other magazine like that used in today's military. Bigger weapons mean to lay down suppressive fire such as the 249B use belt fed magazines as well as crew serve weapons like the M2 or Mk19.
    Not all anti's are stupid and making false statements can diminish your credibility when trying to articulate an arguement with them. "Assualt Rifle" is a noun listed in many resources including Merriam Websters dictionay. So don't go around trying to wordsmith something that does exists and is not open for debate.
    Assault rifle - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
    assault rifle
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ssault%2Brifle
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    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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    Senior Member Array NCSoxFan's Avatar
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    I agree with suntzu. If your best argument is a play on semantics you're better off not joining the discussion. I try to focus on what their trying to accomplish, do they wish to save lives or ban guns? Usually they'll answer they want to save lives so I ask why not focus on traffic deaths. Imagine if the media broadcast the images of all the minors killed in traffic accidents daily in America the way they run firearm related news.

  12. #11
    Member Array MrsHB's Avatar
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    Check out this article for some excellent talking points. It's one of the better articles I've read (and ironically, written by a self-professed 'leftist', who is also a gun supporter):

    Why Not Renew the “Assault Weapons” Ban? Well, I’ll Tell You… « Kontradictions

    It's a bit long, so grab a cup of coffee before you get started.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
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  13. #12
    Member Array EdJean's Avatar
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    For talking points, I try to keep it simple.

    Question #1 - A true "assault" rifle is fully automatic, or has the option for full automatic. They are already banned for the average citizen. Excellent video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

    Question #2 - For a semi-automatic rifle, there is no real difference between the hunting rifle and liberal defined "assault" rifle. See video above. Same round, same mechanical technology. One just looks military.

    Question #3 - Extended magazines. What is the difference between a 30 round and three 10 round magazines? IMO, for the purposes of killing people in a gun free zone, there is no difference. So why ban them so that law abiding citizens cannot have one? The VA Tech killer had a backpack full of loaded magazines. From Wikipedia - "He then walked to Norris Hall. In a backpack, he carried several chains, locks, a hammer, a knife, two handguns with nineteen 10 and 15 round magazines, and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition."

    The article linked in MrsHB's post above is excellent. A long read, but very good.

    Another good article is here: Gun Control Tramples On The Certain Virtues Of A Heavily Armed Citizenry - Forbes

    Americans armed with AR-15 type rifles and 30 round magazines helps level the playing field and ensure our freedom from a tyrannical government.

    Ed
    Last edited by EdJean; December 30th, 2012 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Found original YouTube clip

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    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Can someone give me a few talking points ?

    Here's another lucid argument from a liberal ( I know, I know)

    Over two years old, but like a fine scotch, age doesn't hurt a good idea...

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...cond-Amendment
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