I think I changed my mind.

This is a discussion on I think I changed my mind. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I have a late model stainless Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. First, let me say that I am a handloader and bullet caster, and my ...

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Thread: I think I changed my mind.

  1. #1
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    I think I changed my mind.

    I have a late model stainless Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. First, let me say that I am a handloader and bullet caster, and my choosing the 45-70 over the .450 was a matter of practicality. I can duplicate the ballistics of the .450 with cheap, readily available 45-70 brass. Who knows if the .450 will be around?

    I was going to sell the rifle. Now, I\'m not so sure.

    While sharpening knives at a local sporting goods shop, I get into discussions about rifles for plinking, hunting and survival. In the survival category, most people think \'defense'and look towards the \'black rifle.\'

    I picked up the Marlin lately and saw it all. Power, speed, portability, cheap easy-to-replace parts, strength and the ability to kill just about any animal on earth. In fact, I don\'t believe \'just about,'it will kill anything. The top loads for the 45-70 are some of the bottom loads for the .458 Mag, and they fire the same .458 bullet. No question, five shots of 405 grain, chilled lino flat-points will easily put a charging lion on his back.

    And maybe Custer had problems, but the 45-70 was the successful military calibre for about 25 years. It killed a lot of the enemy, and in a single shot to boot. If memory serves, there were even 45-70 carbines at the charge up San Juan Hill.

    Do you consider this an \'assault weapon\'?

    I think I do, for the following criteria.

    Right now I have 500 cast flat-points and a lot of time. I\'m a good handloader and make pristine rounds. Suppose Betty came to you one day and said \"That insane biker has crossed the line and offended my honor, go get him!\" You ask if I am armed.

    Betty replies, \"Yeah, he ran out into the old-growth with a few strips of beef jerky, a blanket, and a sharp knife--but then he only has that Marlin and a bandolier of cartridges.\"

    Do you consider the 45-70 an \'assault weapon'at that point? I know my mind has changed, and I\'m keeping the Marlin.

    http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigBore_levrAction/1895GS.htm

    edit: Have you seen \"Quigley Down Under\"?

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  3. #2
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    I have faded memories of my brother and I playing sniper in the second story of a barn with a .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield. Those small, helpless chunks of cinderblock 100 yards away didn\'t stand a chance.

  4. #3
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Well, there ya'go.

    Betty, you\'re not a big person, and with standard loads, you did okay. And 100 yards for deer/meat is pretty average work for a brush gun.

    For some odd reason, when I pick up that Marlin, I want to get away into the country with my 4-wheeler and let my beard grow.

    I\'m thinking of at least a red hi-viz front pin for the Old Girl. Yeah, yeah, it ain\'t authentic on a lever action. However, if you ever see the front sight on a Marlin, it can get \'lost'in the brackground clutter.

  5. #4
    JT
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    Distinguished Member Array JT's Avatar
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    My dad has a Marlin in 45-70. Great gun. A lot of fun to shoot. Itís not too far down on my list of guns to buy, so one of these days in the not too distant future, Iím probably going to have one.

  6. #5
    Member Array scbair's Avatar
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    I\'m a bit more conservative. As we don\'t have many critters in SC that the ol'.30-30 won\'t handle at out to 100 yards, I like my Winchester M94, equipped with a Lyman tang-mounted aperture sight. Light, fast, accurate, and easy to \"top off\" in the middle of any activity.

    Not disputing the versatility of the .45-70 cartridge, though. Hmmm... maybe I need .....

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    Member Array armoredman's Avatar
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    45-70 didn\'t lose for Custer, no Gatlings, poor terrain choice, bad soft brass, and half trained troops did Custer in! Maybe some might poo poo your choice of a lever action \"cowboy assault carbine\", but I don\'t hear anyone volunteering to stand on the other end! Go for it!
    PS - I couldn\'t - look terrible in a beard....

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    Tourist, if the gun is pointed with the business end in my direction it is indeed an assault weapon in my eyes.

    ~A

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    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    APachon,

    When most people step into my gunroom, they seem to be drawn to my flat-top. No question, it\'s a neat custom that whacks pasture poodles cleanly at 450 yards, and in the hands of a friend of mine, a former Marine sniper, any aggressor at 800 yards.

    As I\'ve aged, I\'m drawn to less flashy items, that is, items I can live with and enhance my enjoyment of a sport. For example, this past year was the first time I thought \'heated hand-grips'on a motorcycle made sense!

    If I had to break and run quickly, grabbing only a BOB, a pistol and a rifle, I think I\'d take the Marlin. I might not fight every day, but I eat every day. True, many in Wisconsin successfully hunt deer with a .223 or a 22-250 and bring home the meat.

    Other than take game, I can wash the Marlin in a river, find replacement parts in most museums, cast slugs from any piece of lead, bismuth or zinc I can find, and brass in any hick-town hardware store.

    It\'s linear thinking. I used to have a 5.0 Mustang, which I babied. Now I have a V-8 F-150 which will certainly get me home from the most hostile of conditions. In that arguement, the flat-top becomes a nice toy, and the Marlin a serious addition to lifestyle.

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    New Member Array reg440's Avatar
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    Tourist,

    I also reload the .45-70 for my handgun, and I can assure you that I would not want to get hit by a round like that seeing what it can do to deer sized game.

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    I think 45-70 would work just fine ... Them hand loaded 500 grainers i shoot out of my Encore get your and what your shooting at attention ..

    Now i dont think i would want to try and use my encore as a SHTF rifle if it was all i had i know other than slower to relaod it would do the job what i was shootign at wasnt on top of me yet..

  12. #11
    Troll Array heyu's Avatar
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    With a good AR-15, I can react, raise the rifle from low ready and hit 2 men's toros, 5m apart, at 50m, in 1.40 seconds. Try that sometime with the 45-70. This is on a CE electronic shooting timer, to include my .20 second reaction time. I don't kid myself about my "fighting abilty". Nor do I pay 50c a shot for practice ammo. My AR has a .22lr conversion unit, letting me get in lot of relevant snapshooting practice.

    It takes about 5000 rds a year to stay really fast and accurate with a rifle, from either shoulder. If you shoot Right handed around the left side of cover, it exposes your entire torso. Most real rifle type combat is done from prone. Have you ever tried reloading a tubular magazine in the dark, in the rain, in the mud, while using gloves or with cold-numbed hands, while being shot at? You should try it sometime, and then you'll wrap that lever action around a tree before you'll consider it to be a proper fighting rifle. Get some sand, mud, or ice into that action, and try cleaning it in the field. Try hitting at night, without luminous sights, too.

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    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    When you consider rifles in history that actually have hastened "genocide," most people would consider the AK-47 or some other modern assault rifle.

    In truth, there are many branches of Native Americans that do not exist today because of 45-70 trapdoor Springfields.

    To be sure, many people here in Wisconsin hunt with a 7.62x39mm rifle, I'd hate to have to bring down an angry bear with one.

    To me, 'surviving' is more than mano a mano fighting. It's winning against nature, feeding yourself and taking on whatever comes up from the other side of the mountain.

    I own a flat-top .223 for varmints. If I heard a major bump in the night and could only grab one of the two weapons, it would be the lever gun. And if you faced me, knowing that my shot can easily penetrate furniture, walls, any wood door, bricks, most any place on a modern car and still kill you by blunt trauma even if you're wearing a kevlar vest, I think your attitude on aggression would immediately change.

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    Troll Array heyu's Avatar
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    My 223 pierces any realistic body armor. who says you are going to get to any longarm in time, anyway? What makes you think that attacks occur in the home, or at night? Such things are VERY rare, and usually, if you can't respond in 1 second flat, only luck saves you. your 45-70 is probably going to kill one of your neighbors. Leaving loaded guns laying around is just stupid, and loading a tubular mag gun, in the dark, is even dumber.

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    Troll Array heyu's Avatar
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    the Indians mostly died of small pox, did you even know that much? The traders deliberately gave them pox infected blankets. All they had was bows and muzzleloaders, and NO understanding of the latter, so your analogy sucks. Today, you will be AGAINST AK"s, not muzzleloaders.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array Prospector's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by heyu
    the Indians mostly died of small pox, did you even know that much? The traders deliberately gave them pox infected blankets. All they had was bows and muzzleloaders, and NO understanding of the latter, so your analogy sucks. Today, you will be AGAINST AK"s, not muzzleloaders.
    I love how some "stories" still persist...pox infected blankets is hogwash....also, don't know which century and area your describing, but you'll find that at least in the Southwest, Indians tended to get their hands on contemporary firearms too. If you ever get to Ft. Sill in Oklahoma they have a cool museum with lots of Indian equipment.....check it out.

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