16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist... - Page 2

16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

This is a discussion on 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Chuck R. Misses do happen regardless of caliber or platform, but based on your theory, you’re setting yourself up by increasing the ...

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 52
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

  1. #16
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    Misses do happen regardless of caliber or platform, but based on your theory, you’re setting yourself up by increasing the odds that you’ll miss.
    How do you know I'll miss any quicker with a shotgun than a handgun? I'm more likely to miss with a handgun than a shotgun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...And if the target is beyond the 7 yard mark? What happens if you must exit your house and take the fight to a longer distance?
    We really don't want to turn this into a who can think of a scenario that proves the other guys choice won't work do we?

    But to answer your question, I'm going with the probabilities of a scenario actually happening. I believe it is a far higher probability that most of us will face intruders inside the house rather than running around outside shooting up the neighborhood.

    Have you ever known of a case where the homeowners had to pursue someone outside or make over 15 yard shots? Even if it did happen there are options - changeover to a tighter grouping load or a slug.

    Speaking of liability, one does not generally want to be running around outside chasing BGs. Even if you win and no innocents get hurt, it looks really bad in the courtroom.

    From what you're saying, you essentially use your shotgun like a large caliber rifle. I mean if you don't want spread, why use a shotgun at all? You'd be much better off with a carbine. Why put up with the recoil, limited range, and low capacity of rifle/shotgun when you can start with a carbine and have lower recoil, far greater range, no spread issue at all, high capacity, and no slug transitions.

    The advantage to a shotgun is spread. If you don't want spread then you would be better off with something that doesn't spread - like a carbine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...What happens IF you must take a shot past a family member that’s been taken hostage?
    Probably transition to my handgun.

    But there's that slanted scenario thing again. If that's what this is going to be, I'll concede that you can make up scenarios that favor one thing and not another. Of course I can do that too, and there we'd go all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...Would you really be happy then with a loose pattern then?
    Would you think a shotgun with any load would be as good as a carbine for that situation? From all you've posted, you're basically saying that you want the tightest grouping load you can get, in case you have to go long range outside, or have to take a hostage type shot at 7 yards. If you think those are the most likely scenarios you'll face, then it seems to me you would be better off with a carbine, not a shotgun with slug-like patterns.

    Unless the spread of a shotgun offers some advantage, then it is just simply a large bore rifle with a heavy recoil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...Do you do a slug drill or change loads?
    I haven't done one since I shot this morning. Before that it was last night; I did a lot of dry fire slug changeovers last night. Both from cruiser safe and cruiser ready, both from one slug changeovers to two slug changeovers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...So we have to ask: Is the benefit of getting a hit that should have missed, because we chose a loose patterning load/choke combination, more beneficial...
    I don't know, tell me if I or a family member gets shot because I missed the threat entirely and then I'll answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...than a tight patterning load/choke that remains on a target at a greater distance, thereby increasing the effective range of our shotgun and decreasing potential liability?
    What liability? Mine or some unforeseen remote chance that might happen as opposed to I'm for sure about to die liability?

    I think the real issue is, you're trying to use a shotgun for a carbine and compromising close ranges and longer ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...I’m subscribing to the latter.
    That's fine; I'm going with the one that I think has the best chance of saving me and mine in the scenarios that are most likely to happen. If I thought I would need rifle accuracy, which is all a tightly patterning shotgun is, I'd start with a rifle and eliminate the slug changeovers under stress.
    TX expat and aus71383 like this.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    3,802
    Tangle, I get what you're saying in both threads, it's just that most people take that all info and decide their shotgun is master of all trades, and it just ain't - unless maybe you've had an enormous amount of specialized training. Don't worry, I don't think you're trying to convince anyone an AR isn't a good choice. I haven't had the training opportunities you've had, but the educated opinions (definitely not saying yours isn't) I've read have tended to lean heavily towards the shotgun is more an expert's gun than a gun anyone can pick up and it will do anything that needs doin'. It's kinda like the snubby scenario where all its virtues are extolled, but somehow all the limitations get left out and beginners get lead down a frustrating road. Seems for the vast majority, it is best used staying behind cover pointed towards a kill point (hall/doorway). The local PD has gone with Federal's FliteControl shells b/c the buckshot stays as a single mass out to 25 yds and they like to talk about how it's turned their shotguns into hostage rescue tools - of course they've given up the aspect of the pellets spreading. Seems that's the trend in SD shotgun loads, having them shoot like rifles - and as you said, you're also taking on additional recoil, among other things, unnecessarily.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,240
    I think Gabe Suarez had a very similar article a while ago, where he was arguing against the current trend toward shotguns that are choked to death. The spread of a shotgun can be of great value if you want to hit a moving target with something.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,326
    I really don't see what there is to debate here. As to misses, it's a home defense gun. Any stray pellets will be caught in the home walls or furniture. A non issue.

    And as far as expertise and training with the weapon, I say that's not an issue either. You can either point, shoot, and repeat, or you can't.

    Any one can use the shotgun. It's a great home defense weapon. It is a very popular choice for good reason.

    Plus, I like the spread factor.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #20
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...it's just that most people take that all info and decide their shotgun is master of all trades, and it just ain't - unless maybe you've had an enormous amount of specialized training...
    I agree, a shotgun's full capability cannot be realized without training. OTOH, I thin if you give a person a double barrel shotgun vs a carbine, he's gonna pick up the shotgun a lot quicker. The carbine requires loading mags, inserting mags, clearing mals, sight picture, sight alignment, etc. - it's not all that easy either.

    A semi-auto shotgun is pretty simple to load and shoot, especially with a bead sight - there's little sight picture and sight alignment.


    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...I haven't had the training opportunities you've had, but the educated opinions (definitely not saying yours isn't) I've read have tended to lean heavily towards the shotgun is more an expert's gun than a gun anyone can pick up and it will do anything that needs doin'.
    This thread, more so than the other one, is about HD. I think most people can operate a shotgun for that purpose about as easily as they could learn a carbine with its magazine.

    But, yes, to use a shotgun to its fullest and efficiently, it takes training and practice. But homeowners likely don't need to do all that other stuff. They just need a good load, understand how to load, shoot, and unload the shotgun. That's about the same for a carbine.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...Seems for the vast majority, it is best used staying behind cover pointed towards a kill point (hall/doorway).
    Absolutely! That would be pretty easy to do with a double barrel or semi-auto shotgun.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...The local PD has gone with Federal's FliteControl shells b/c the buckshot stays as a single mass out to 25 yds and they like to talk about how it's turned their shotguns into hostage rescue tools - of course they've given up the aspect of the pellets spreading. I can't help but think it's a stopgap measure b/c they can't afford the rifles they would prefer.
    Well, Federal says they are a 'slug' out to 10 yards, could be 15 yards but I think it's 10. If the FliteControl is full power loads, they should be good to 25 yards, if it's low recoil, there have been a number of failures to stop reported.

    I agree with you, they have indeed given up one of the advantages of the shotgun and would be better off with an AR past 25 yards - more power downrange, more accuracy, less recoil, more ammo on board.

    But yes, if they can't afford rifles, like you say, they have essentially turned their shotguns into rifles. And, it will probably serve them well as a rifle, just with a heavy recoil and low capacity and all that training you alluded to.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  6. #21
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I really don't see what there is to debate here. As to misses, it's a home defense gun. Any stray pellets will be caught in the home walls or furniture. A non issue.

    And as far as expertise and training with the weapon, I say that's not an issue either. You can either point, shoot, and repeat, or you can't.

    Any one can use the shotgun. It's a great home defense weapon. It is a very popular choice for good reason.
    That's the way I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ...Plus, I like the spread factor.
    Me too.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  7. #22
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I think Gabe Suarez had a very similar article a while ago, where he was arguing against the current trend toward shotguns that are choked to death. The spread of a shotgun can be of great value if you want to hit a moving target with something.
    I didn't see it, you wouldn't happen to have a link by chance; I'd love to read it.

    I see the logic. A shotgun 'choked to death' is a rifle with a lot of kick and low capacity. It just doesn't make sense unless you've have a need to transition to slugs.

    Sure would like to read that if you can remember where it is.

    Thanks!
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    3,802
    Here's a link to a forum with a couple of Gabe's articles on "Combat Shotguns" and "Why Do I Need a Rifle"

  9. #24
    Member Array Rawah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    128
    Great work and thanks for sharing your results!

  10. #25
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Here's a link to a forum with a couple of Gabe's articles on "Combat Shotguns" and "Why Do I Need a Rifle"
    Many thanks ndergr!

    Don't know if I'll have time to check them out today - I have to be offline a good bit of today, but I look forward to the read.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  11. #26
    VIP Member
    Array ppkheat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,184
    Thanks for the informative information.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  12. #27
    Member Array Nutrodoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    158
    Excellent discussion. Thanks to all contributors.

    Way, way back in my SWAT days - we are talking about 40 years ago - each member of the team carried a rifle and a handgun except for one guy who carried a shotgun. Our team also had a sniper. I don't know if teams are configured the same way now. So we had all three - extreme precision with the sniper, reasonable precision with the rifles, and the strength of the shotgun was scatter. We were even taught how to increase the spread if needed to defend against multiple opponents. Before SWAT when on general patrol, we loaded our Remingtons or Ithicas with a combination of 00 buck and rifled slugs in a specific order. So in the time it took to pump once or twice, we could change from scatter to a single projectile with greater penetration. We did not carry rifles on patrol in those days.

    Each weapon has it's strengths and weaknesses for each specific situation, but for home defense, I personally would prefer a shotgun with transition to a handgun if more precision is needed. If I think about my wife home alone with two or three home invaders crashing through a door - I'd want her to have the the shotgun.
    Tangle likes this.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Here's a link to a forum with a couple of Gabe's articles on "Combat Shotguns" and "Why Do I Need a Rifle"
    That's the article I was thinking of. Thanks for the link.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  14. #29
    Member Array SIG_guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    SW, OK
    Posts
    106
    @getsmith just a quick comment the best number 4 load that I have shot out of my Mossberg has been the Remington variety, I have tried Winchester, Federal and PMC nothing patterns as well as the Remington. Don't know if he has anymore in stock right now but look at sgammo.com that is where I buy my cased ammo from.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    596
    Tangle, I always appreciate someone who challenges conventional wisdom, but after much thought and patterning, I feel most comfortable with a very tight patterning load. Perhaps I am giving up the possibility of a hit with a pellet or two on a moving target, but because I have neighbors close by in all four directions (only one of whom has a brick house) I am very concerned with stray flyers. I ended up with the tightest patterning buckshot I could find, Federal Flite COntrol #1. I have also worked out where in my house I can take a shot with a decent backstop (for pistol or shotty) and where I would be most likely to risk a miss into my neighbors bedrooms or living rooms

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

16 pellet shotgun
,

4/16 shotgun

,
best sd shotgun load
,

patterning/sd

,
quite as *** loads
,
sd shotgun pattern
,
where to pattern a shotgun in miami
,
winchester xb-124
,

winchester xb121

,

winchester xb124

,
xb124 winchester
,
xb124 winchester testing home defense
Click on a term to search for related topics.