16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist... - Page 3

16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

This is a discussion on 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bklynboy Tangle, I always appreciate someone who challenges conventional wisdom, but after much thought and patterning, I feel most comfortable with a ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 52
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

  1. #31
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,822
    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy View Post
    Tangle, I always appreciate someone who challenges conventional wisdom, but after much thought and patterning, I feel most comfortable with a very tight patterning load. Perhaps I am giving up the possibility of a hit with a pellet or two on a moving target, but because I have neighbors close by in all four directions (only one of whom has a brick house) I am very concerned with stray flyers....
    But, I'm not challenging conventional wisdom, I'm promoting it. Spread is the ONLY reason to use a shotgun in home defense. What other reason would there be? It's low capacity, a carbine is high capacity; it has heavy recoil, a carbine has light recoil; the shotgun is not as precise as a carbine, and the shotgun is about 4" longer. So without spread, why would anyone choose a shotgun over a carbine? Also, in the case of a pump shotgun there is a very real possibility of a short stroke under stress.

    Without spread, the miss forgiveness is gone. Without spread, the multiple projectile damage is gone. Without spread, the chances of hitting vitals with one shot go down.

    If you give up spread, what is the point of going to a tighter group that could partially hit a barrier, break up and produce lots of stray pellets?

    But there is a tighter grouping load than Flitecontrol - a slug. In home defense ranges, i.e. less than 10 yards, Flitecontrol is essentially a slug. I've patterned Flitecontrol at 7 yards; the pattern measured 3/4" inch from edge to edge! I did it repeatedly because I couldn't believe it, but it did it every time. I was very impressed until I realized out to 7 yards, I might as well be shooting a slug.

    So now here we are using the shotgun essentially as a rifle. Those tight slug-like loads are no more than a rifle shot with low capacity and a lot of recoil.

    You seem to be thinking that if you use Flightcontrol, you won't miss. But we know with the stress of a gunfight, with threats that are not standing still, and are shooting at you, we do in fact miss. Add to that subdued lighting, shadows, partially exposed threats, etc.

    So if you miss with a Flitecontrol, the projectile is essentially a 1500 ft-lb unified mass of lead out to 10 yards at which point it starts to spread. Or once that unified mass penetrates a an inside and outside wall, it is now 9 pellets with spread and they each have more energy than they would if they had penetrated the walls as individual pellets.
    TX expat and aus71383 like this.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!


  2. #32
    VIP Member
    Array TX expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,805
    This has been an incredibly useful thread. Thank you Tangle for spending so much time putting together such an excellent, and well thought out, post!

    I've been moving towards the light on shotguns for HD and this really has helped solidify a lot of what I've been thinking about.
    NRA Life Member

    "I don't believe gun owners have rights." - Sarah Brady

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    584
    It's not that I think I will not miss with a tight pattern, but that with greater spread I am almost guaranteed to miss.

  4. #34
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,822
    Maybe some clarification would be helpful here. The thread is to show pellet spread at 7 yards, and how pellet spread can produce a serious hit with what would be a complete miss with a single projectile.

    One thing I want to clarify is the meaning of a miss. I'm looking at a miss as the alignment of the centerline of the bore somewhere off the target. IOW, a miss is when a single projectile, i.e. rifle or pistol, would NOT make any contact with the threat - anything else is a hit, maybe a poorly placed hit but a hit.

    Let's consider the target in the pic #11 in post #2, reproduced here for reference:
    11


    Let's look at the shoulder shots. The center or alignment of the centerline of the bore is clearly off the target such that a single projectile would miss, not hit marginally, but miss altogether. What do we see?

    First, we can see a single projectile with the very same centerline alignment would do nothing toward stopping the threat. We also see that the shotgun spread, resulted in 8 pellet hits to the arm an shoulder. Remember this is at 7 yards, not 25 yards, etc. This whole thread is addressing 7 yard ranges only, as might be typical inside a home. If you chase a BG outside, you might want to be doing a load changeover as you chase - completely different setting.

    So we have 8 hits with 4 buckshot at 7 yards. Granted they are peripheral, but that's 100% better than a complete rifle or pistol miss. Number 4 buckshot pellets are 0.24" in diameter and their combined frontal area is more that the frontal area of two .45 ACP hits and more than 3.5 times the frontal area of a 9mm round.

    We can't say how such a peripheral hit would affect the threat, but it would likely cause some disability, at least momentary distraction at minimum, perhaps complete surrender. But in any event, it's better than no hit at all.

    And, keep in mind, I'm not saying we're shooting wildly, I'm talking about we're doing our best to hit the guy and maybe due to his movement or whatever, we miss the threat a bit.
    aus71383 likes this.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  5. #35
    VIP Member
    Array TX expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,805
    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy View Post
    It's not that I think I will not miss with a tight pattern, but that with greater spread I am almost guaranteed to miss.
    So you'd rather miss with all of 'em?

    Tangle's point is really more about the honest fact that in a real HD scenario your chances of a miss, or near miss are fairly high, so more spread equals less chance of a total miss.
    NRA Life Member

    "I don't believe gun owners have rights." - Sarah Brady

  6. #36
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,822
    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy View Post
    It's not that I think I will not miss with a tight pattern, but that with greater spread I am almost guaranteed to miss.
    You're also more likely to get hits on the threat too. And even if some pellets miss, they are low energy projectiles and represent a much lower threat to a neighbor where the pellet has to go through four walls to get to him.

    And in a gunfight with a moving threat, distractions, partially covered, shooting at you, I think the risk of a miss cannot be ignored. All it would take is for the threat to move just about the time you break the shot and off goes this 1500 ft-lb hunk of lead toward your neighbor's house.

    #4 buckshot is extremely unlikely to be able to do much more than get outside your house and lodge in an outside wall of a neighbor's house and yet it gives a wide spread and to my surprise there are some knowledgable trainers that prefer #4 buck. I prefer no less than #1, but I find it hard to argue with #4 at 7 yards.

    I ask this respectfully, as something to consider: are you ignoring the possibility of a miss and the danger to neighbors with a 1500 ft-lb mass of unified lead heading their way?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  7. #37
    Member Array the6shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    462
    I like the #4 buckshot, I have lots of it.
    The U.S. Army uses a shotgun still, most law enforcement still use it.
    And I am old school and will continue to use it.
    Because, it maybe all you have, and the last line of defense is a stick.
    Shotguns will always have a place for self defence.

  8. #38
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,822
    Quote Originally Posted by the6shooter View Post
    I like the #4 buckshot, I have lots of it.
    #1 and #4 looks pretty impressive for home defense. A couple of those shoulder shots have a pretty clear center miss and still a bunch of pellets on the threat.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,060
    Tangle - If you can safely do this, it would be interesting to pattern some #1, #4, and OO buckshot fired while swinging the shotgun - as if you were engaging a moving threat. Those of us who shoot trap or skeet understand the advantages of a shotgun's spread while trying to hit moving targets. As a long-time rifle and pistol shooter, it took me a looong time to retrain myself to keep the gun swinging while pulling the trigger.

    It would be interesting to see what "stringing" happens with buckshot at typical inside-the-home distances.

    It might also be interesting to do some close range run-and-gun exercises, and compare the hit rate with pistol vs carbine vs shotgun. I'm thinking you'd have your best results with the latter, as long as you are not trying to engage a whole squad's worth of targets - then the low capacity of the shotgun will come into play.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, LCP (2), Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    arizona
    Posts
    3,749

    Re: 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

    Great thread, Tangle

    I actually found myself wincing for the bad guy when I saw those targets.

    My first reaction was "ooh, that's gotta hurt"

    Sent from my Galaxy S2
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  11. #41
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,641
    I'd rather have two hits and seven misses with 00 than zero hits with 5.56. But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    2,543
    What kind of choke do you have on your gun? Have you seen some of the "weird" chokes out there?

    Duckbill Shotgunworld.com • View topic - Ways of increasing shotgun spread?

    Diverter Shotgunworld.com • View topic - A&W Diverter/Cyl Bore/Aimpro/Vang/Cyl w/Flight Control

    Basically to make a horizontal pattern.

    Austin

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    584
    This has been a most interesting discussion and Tangle I appreciate your effort in articulating and documenting your approach. You have not convinced me yet, but you do have me seriously re-examining my approach. As you have picked up on, my greatest concern has been to avoid unnecessary danger to my neighbors while at the same time, taking what steps I can to stop a threat. I started with 00 buck some years ago, decided to go down to #4 ( I still have a ton of Federal and Winchester LE 00 and RIO #4) but when I saw the tight patterns from the FEderal LE loads, initially the 00 and last year the newly released #1, I switched to it. The next time I get to a range where I can move and shoot, I will compare the Federal Flite Control rounds with the Winchester and Rio rounds (both of which have much greater spread) and get post some pictures of the results.

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    3,675
    Here's my thoughts after/during a PM discussion with Tangle about this and some other stuff - we're still hashing it out. Would like to point out I own a shotty, don't have anything against them, but do think a carbine is more versatile given a single setup. I'm also looking at this from the perspective of what most people have in their homes - an average shooter with a pump shotgun with 00 vs a carbine with a collapsible stock, or heck even an Rem/Mossy autoloader. If you've got special training or weapons, good for you. I don't think it's reasonable to compare everything you can do with a shotty with barrel, choke, stock, and ammo changes with a carbine, but rather look at a carbine vs a shotgun setup for in-home defense as that's the role it's playing when they come busting through the door, plus consider the array of possible users in a household. What a shotgun can also do once you put a rifled barrel or choke on it makes no difference when you've got an 18" open choke barrel on it. I do think the shotgun is the best choice when you're holed up and have it pointed at a door/hallway

    What I believe everyone should also consider when looking at these near misses is, using trig, at 7 yds (252 in) it only takes a 1 deg variance on the shooter's part to move the center of the impact 4.4" which could turn these near misses/hits into complete misses. Conversely, it could also turn those rifle misses into hits. That's 1 deg when you're shaking, breathing hard, pulse racing, etc. Decision's yours, just wanted to present another point of view, but I think there are more important considerations when choosing between the two weapons.

  15. #45
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,501
    Good post Tangle

    I still like pistol caliber carbines for HD but the shotgun is my next choice. I agree that a very tight pattern negates the advantage of the shotgun
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

16 pellet shotgun
,

4/16 shotgun

,
best sd shotgun load
,

patterning/sd

,
quite as *** loads
,
sd shotgun pattern
,
where to pattern a shotgun in miami
,
winchester xb-124
,

winchester xb121

,

winchester xb124

,
xb124 winchester
,
xb124 winchester testing home defense
Click on a term to search for related topics.