16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist...

This is a discussion on 16 shotgun loads patterned for SD with a twist... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I like the #4 buckshot for HD. After seeing your pics, I like it even more!! The shotgun offers many choices for HD. Thanks for ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    I like the #4 buckshot for HD. After seeing your pics, I like it even more!!

    The shotgun offers many choices for HD.

    Thanks for the research and publication.
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    What I believe everyone should also consider when looking at these near misses is, using trig, at 7 yds (252 in) it only takes a 1 deg variance on the shooter's part to move the center of the impact 4.4" which could turn these near misses/hits into complete misses.
    Nope! That is incorrect. My head is 5.5" wide. If the POA is the center of my head, but has a 1 degree angle error, the shot will be 4.4" from center.Since my head extends from center 2.75" the 4.4" offset is 1.65" off the side of my head. That is a 1.65" complete miss by a rifle or handgun. Let me say that again, it is a complete miss by 1.6" by a single projectile gun.

    Now the shotgun.

    Based on the patterns above, and knowing I want as much spread as I can get at 7 yards, which is why we're patterning the loads to start with, which load would I choose for my shotgun? One with the wider spreads. I measured the spread of the candidates last night and they are right at 6" spreads measured in at least two different directions. So now let's put the shotgun load, 1.65" off to the side of my head here the 1 degree error in angle would put it. Since the spread has a 3" radius, there is an overlap of 1.35" of the pattern with my head.

    So the result of a one degree angle error is a 1.6" miss, a complete miss, with a rifle and at least one and maybe more hits with the shotgun.

    That's the benefit of a spread pattern at 7 yards. It really means even if your aim is 1.6" off to the side of the head when the shot breaks, you will still get a hit with the shotgun.

    Plus, let me point out one other thing. Let's have a pretend contest. Me with a single barrel shotgun and you with anything you want to shoot. We'll set a target up at 7 yards, the range addressed by this thread, and see who can get at least 12 hits on the target first.

    Let's assume person with the rifle or handgun can shoot ON TARGET, at a rate of 5 rounds per second - that's 0.2 second split times.

    Here's how that works. When my trigger breaks, I just put 12 #1 pellets on the target. It will take you, 2.4 seconds to put 12 hits on the target, assuming no misses. It will take you 12 sight pictures, 11 recoil recoveries, and 12 trigger pulls to put 12 hits on the target.

    You know, I honestly believe I can reload the single shot and fire again in 2.4 seconds.

    So I can put 12 hits on a threat with one pull while you're standing there trying to hit the next 11 shots.
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy View Post
    This has been a most interesting discussion and Tangle I appreciate your effort in articulating and documenting your approach. You have not convinced me yet, but you do have me seriously re-examining my approach. As you have picked up on, my greatest concern has been to avoid unnecessary danger to my neighbors while at the same time, taking what steps I can to stop a threat. I started with 00 buck some years ago, decided to go down to #4 ( I still have a ton of Federal and Winchester LE 00 and RIO #4) but when I saw the tight patterns from the FEderal LE loads, initially the 00 and last year the newly released #1, I switched to it. The next time I get to a range where I can move and shoot, I will compare the Federal Flite Control rounds with the Winchester and Rio rounds (both of which have much greater spread) and get post some pictures of the results.
    Well, I have learned some interesting things about shotguns and I knew there were others pondering the same things I was so I thought since I had to shoot the targets for my on HD purposes, I might as well take some pics and share it with others.

    That #4 sure looks good to me! I really don't see a problem with #4 buck for 7yd HD applications, and it would lose steam pretty fast passing through a wall and the air. I'm not saying it's neighbor safe, but certainly safer than 00 and slug-like rounds.

    It seems to me it's just about as good as it gets and IIRC it's only $2.59/5 rounds. You get wide spread and at least reduced risk to your neighbor and less risk is a good thing.

    In fact, here's a video of a kid shooting a shotgun at a target a ways off and notice he's repeatedly hitting the swinger at the top of the target. He misses a few times but for the most part he has it going back and forth. How many think he's getting hits because of shot spread? I do! the same thing happens at 7 yards, but you have to pick a round with spread at 7 yards that's about equivalent to the spread of the load he's shooting at his range.

    That's another advantage to the shotgun - you can pick loads to meet the specific application you're addressing.

    So here's the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YnWr-wfbPM

    The thing about this vid is that the kid is essentially untrained except for just shooting the shotgun. In the beginning of the vid, a pump or the M4 he's using would be almost even. Later on in the vid where he does rapid fire, the semi would certainly have an advantage in speed. But it really doesn't take much training to realize how to run a pump fast as well. It won't be as fast as a semi, but the fire power down range is by far more than he could put down range with a semi-auto carbine.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Nope! That is incorrect. My head is 5.5" wide. If the POA is the center of my head, but has a 1 degree angle error, the shot will be 4.4" from center.Since my head extends from center 2.75" the 4.4" offset is 1.65" off the side of my head. That is a 1.65" complete miss by a rifle or handgun. Let me say that again, it is a complete miss by 1.6" by a single projectile gun.

    Now the shotgun.

    Based on the patterns above, and knowing I want as much spread as I can get at 7 yards, which is why we're patterning the loads to start with, which load would I choose for my shotgun? One with the wider spreads. I measured the spread of the candidates last night and they are right at 6" spreads measured in at least two different directions. So now let's put the shotgun load, 1.65" off to the side of my head here the 1 degree error in angle would put it. Since the spread has a 3" radius, there is an overlap of 1.35" of the pattern with my head.

    So the result of a one degree angle error is a 1.6" miss, a complete miss, with a rifle and at least one and maybe more hits with the shotgun.

    That's the benefit of a spread pattern at 7 yards. It really means even if your aim is 1.6" off to the side of the head when the shot breaks, you will still get a hit with the shotgun.

    Plus, let me point out one other thing. Let's have a pretend contest. Me with a single barrel shotgun and you with anything you want to shoot. We'll set a target up at 7 yards, the range addressed by this thread, and see who can get at least 12 hits on the target first.

    Let's assume person with the rifle or handgun can shoot ON TARGET, at a rate of 5 rounds per second - that's 0.2 second split times.

    Here's how that works. When my trigger breaks, I just put 12 #1 pellets on the target. It will take you, 2.4 seconds to put 12 hits on the target, assuming no misses. It will take you 12 sight pictures, 11 recoil recoveries, and 12 trigger pulls to put 12 hits on the target.

    You know, I honestly believe I can reload the single shot and fire again in 2.4 seconds.

    So I can put 12 hits on a threat with one pull while you're standing there trying to hit the next 11 shots.
    I like all this good information but could you redo it all with legs instead of heads? We're all supposed to shoot for the leg aren't we?
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  6. #50
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    Now you're changing the POA from 1/2" off the shoulder to the center of a head. I'm talking about the natural slight movements present in every shooter under stress. My point stands.

    If it was that big of a practical difference, why does the military not arm teams with shotguns for house clearing?
    Last edited by nedrgr21; January 7th, 2013 at 10:54 PM.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Now you're changing the POA from 1/2" off the shoulder to the center of a head.
    Well let's go right back to the 1/2" MISS off the shoulder. You either don't have a clue about this, or your trying to interpret a miss as something entirely different than what I've presented.

    One of my statements explained that you can both miss and hit with a shotgun with one shot. Can you do that with a rifle? No, you cannot. In the context of the spread hit, it was more than clear that I was referring to an errant point of aim, 1/2" off the shoulder, that would produce a miss with a single projectile, but would be a significant hit with a shotgun due to spread.

    It appears everyone but you understands this.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...I'm talking about the natural slight movements present in every shooter under stress.
    This is so typical of your approach in all your PMs. You try to distract with things that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject. It doesn't matter in any way what causes the errant index. You don't honestly think I have been suggesting that a person is deliberately aiming off target do you?

    Whatever causes the index to be off, nerves, a sneeze, the BG moving, a bee sting, a bump, it doesn't matter what caused the miss alignment of the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...My point stands.
    From all your PMs, your point seems to be that if one misses with a rifle he would also miss with a shotgun and you seem to think it is impossible for it to happen any other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...If it was that big of a practical difference, why does the military not arm teams with shotguns for house clearing?
    Why do you think they don't. The Benelli M4 was selected as the Marine's shotgun.

    I think we all understand pretty clearly the significance and practical advantage of shot spread. You seem to be the only one that thinks there is absolutely no difference in the practical effect of shot spread and a single projectile.

    I've taken a lot of time to discuss this with you and it is pointless to continue.
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  8. #52
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    Hey guys, I posted the shot patterns because I thought it would be interesting and helpful to others as it was for me. I apologize for the loss of focus on the patterns themselves. I think most of you can readily see the advantage of pellet spread and more than enough has been said already.

    So here's shotgun videos just for fun; I think you'll find them quite interesting and enjoy them - I did:

    Benelli M4 Semi-Automatic Shotgun (HD) - YouTube

    This is good for pump guys (I have three pump shotguns - I must like them!)
    Mossberg 500 vs. Remington 870 - YouTube

    Shooting the Benelli M4 - YouTube

    And this is great from NutnFancy - you have to watch this!!!: pay particular attention to NutnFancy's remarks about the tactical shotgun at about the 9:20 mark - don't miss that. I think you'll recall you've heard somebody in this thread say the same thing in different words - and I had not seen this video when I posted the words.

    Pt 1 "Combat Shotgun Shootout:" Remington 870 - YouTube

    And, it never stops You gotta watch at least the beginning of part 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnzoHDT9HVo

    If you want to mod your mossy - you'll like this!
    Mossberg 500 review - YouTube

    And for blazing speed ( I wish I could shoot this fast!) And for us pump guys, yeah, we can't shoot quite that fast - still fun to watch though!
    Full Auto Shotgun (almost)

    Benelli M4 rapid fire - YouTube

    Benelli M4 - YouTube

    Benelli M4 Reliability test! (HD) - YouTube

    Benelli M4 Slug Rapid Fire test - YouTube

    United States Shooting Academy Benelli shotgun speed shoot - YouTube

    Penetration tests - you do need to watch these!
    Penetrating Power of 12 Gauge Shotgun Slugs - Shooting Books and Bottles - YouTube

    870 Remington home defense test: Blasting walls - YouTube

    Remington 870 Wall test: "If a pumpkin was a head" - YouTube
    zacii likes this.
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