Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident.... - Page 2

Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

This is a discussion on Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident.... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio I don't think I can find more than a couple instances over the years, if I really really search, of someone ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I don't think I can find more than a couple instances over the years, if I really really search, of someone being shot accidentally after someone fired in defense, missed, then the buckshot or bullet penetrated the wall and hit an innocent person.
    There are two issues here, one is, will buckshot penetrate a wall with enough energy left to seriously injure someone and two, can it actually happen. The answer to both issues is yes. All it takes is a BG moving just as the trigger is pulled, or fear on the part of the home owner, the gun shy shooter closing her eyes and pulling the trigger, or a plethora of other situations. If they miss, for what ever reason, and there is a person behind an interior wall in line with the shot, they will be seriously injured or killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...People need to learn to shoot and know the layout of their home if that's the case.
    No doubt about that, but is it real? I.e. how many people really learn to shoot a shotgun effectively and of those that do how many have had to shoot at a person moving and about to shoot them.

    I think, Jon, it's easy for people that have had lot's of training to forget how little training most gun owners have had, and how little they shoot, and perhaps even more significant that few ever experience the intensity and fear of a gunfight.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...As expected, there's already some in this thread, with proof posted, defending birdshot. It is made for birds. If one doesn't trust themselves to hit their target at CQB distances, get some training or use a baseball bat instead.
    Again, while right on target as far as what steps need to be taken, but reality is different for most gun owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Learn how to shoot accurately under stress. DO NOT choose ammo based on lesser recoil and lesser penetration. Practice and these things will be of little concern.
    I shot over 18,000 rounds last year - I have no idea how to shoot accurately under stress, nor how to simulate the stress level/intensity of a gunfight. The vast majority of us don't have access to stress training and FOF exercises.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating. I was recently in a home (a very nice home - not sure the difference that makes in construction) where 9mm and 12 gauge buckshot was fired. Three 12 gauge and three or four 9mm, if I remember correctly. Only one penetrated completely through any of the walls.

    Of the 12 gauge, one went through the couch and only three or four pellets made it through and into the wall, which barely even penetrated enough to stay in it and were still visible. Another was fired upward in the kitchen, impacting the corner of a cabinet door with glass panels and into the wall/ceiling. The pellets could easily be dug out of the wall with a pocket knife, they did not penetrate through. The third shot hit the floor.

    With the 9mm, one was fired into the stairwell area and penetrated the wall and stuck in the brick facing the inside. This was inside fired into an interior/exterior wall. The other was fired into a living room wall near the stairwell. It penetrated the wall and was found laying on the outside patio. There was one or two more, but I just can't remember where they were fired. If it was something worth mentioning, I'm sure I'd remember. I'll look through my notes and a post I made on Lightfighter about the shooting to see if anything I just said was wrong and if I have the info on the other bullets.

    So, not that it's a non-issue, but it certainly should not force us to use underpowered ammunition in our defensive firearms. Self defense or duty, this is serious stuff not to be taken lightly. If something recoils to hard, then train around it. If we're worried about the slim possibility of injuring someone due to overpenetration, then we need to learn the layout of the home, or switch to a 5.56 with 75gr TAP, which is LESS likely to overpentrate than buckshot or any quality defensive handgun ammo.
    There are wall penetration tests all over YouTube - 00 buckshot will penetrate multiple walls, especially interior. For those living in crowded homes with lots of people present or in apartment complexes, wall penetration is a real issue.

    We can learn the home layout, but we cannot force an intruder to pose at a safe location or angle for us to shoot him. Due to the location of the threat, the location of loved ones, we will likely not be able to position ourselves in those 'safe' scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...EDIT - I DO understand wanting to use birdshot for women or children when learning to shoot. BUT, I still think when set up for defense, it should be loaded with buckshot, low recoil is fine. From personal experience, I can assure you that the last thing most will be concerned with is recoil.
    I agree right up to the point about being concerned about recoil. People, especially those that have residual fears of guns, bangs, and recoil, may not be consciously thinking about recoil, but their subconscious just might. A person that fears a gun will be affected by that fear in a confrontation. I once tried to help a cousin (female, and not small) learn to shoot her .38 revolver. To my surprise, she absolutely could not get past the loud bang and recoil. And the ammo was just range ammo. She shot three times and couldn't go on.

    I agree with everything you say for a perfect world, i.e. that all gun owners would be great shots, train under stress, etc., but the reality is they aren't and don't do any of that.

    As for the reason some choose birdshot, most do so thinking it's less likely to penetrate walls with enough energy to be a risk, more than recoil concerns. Many people have close neighbors with thin interior walls separating them, so there is a concern, but unfortunately birdshot does not eliminate the threat of wall penetration. As evident from the video I posted, birdshot can easily penetrate two pieces of sheet rock and blow out both sides of a pumpkin and blast the insides all over the wall.

    There is a also the mistaken idea that birdshot is a reduced load, and it can be, but 00 reduced recoil may not have as much recoil as some birdshot loads - it just depends on the specifics of the birdshot. But the physics remain, larger pellets retain more energy, travel further, and penetrate deeper than smaller pellets. Unfortunately, both birdshot and reduced recoil 00 can penetrate walls, at close ranges, and seriously injury someone.
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  2. #17
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    I shot a football helmet with Winchester universal none of the shot went into the helmet.
    Heck, I'd bet you'd have the same results with a football...player!
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  3. #18
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    I can tell you from personal experience that the very last thing I noticed during my defensive shooting was the recoil. Not really even the noise, just the smell.

    I'll reply when I have more time Tangle, but my point is, of all the times a year that a shotgun is fired in self defense, how many times has it penetrated a wall and injured an innocent person? How many times has an innocent person been hit by even a miss, forgetting about over penetration? I can probably count on one hand how many times, unless we count gang members shooting into crowds and hitting others besides their target.

    All of my points can be applied to anyone if they take the time to get some training. So, it's not that the points are wrong, it's just that many think the gun is the answer when actually training and mindset is the answer, the gun is just the tool.

    As for shooting under stress, enough practice will get you there, within reason. Shoot houses, force on force, running 100 yards then shooting or some other extreme exertion, will all help. Mindset is the biggest thing. We get the mind squared away and the rest will be much easier to handle.

    In my mind, there is absolutely zero excuse for someone that takes personal defense seriously to not seek advanced training. If they don't, then the end result is left to hope and luck, regardless of how much "range time" someone has. Range time is not training (unless working on stuff learned in training) and that is not good enough for me.

    As for not getting the bad guy to stop in the ideal place, I agree, but that DOES NOT in any way mean we shouldn't try to learn the layout well enough to know how a miss may affect others. I know my house and I know what angles will be best. If I'm forced to shoot outside one of my kids' bedrooms, so be it. I'll do my best not to miss. I'll also do my best to not shoot at a slightly downward angle directly towards her bed. Not guaranteed, but certainly better than having no idea.

    Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here, not what I think or hope will happen.
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    How many times has an innocent person been hit by even a miss, forgetting about over penetration?
    Well, if the shooters are NYPD, it seems to happen quite a bit.

    That's the real reason Bloomturd doesn't want armed civilians - he's afraid they will out-shoot his cops.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Well, if the shooters are NYPD, it seems to happen quite a bit.

    That's the real reason Bloomturd doesn't want armed civilians - he's afraid they will out-shoot his cops.
    Oh that's right! I forgot about that circus.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    I've shot a coyote with #6 shot with three of my cousins shooting at it (also with bird shot) in a confined chicken house. We killed about 4 dozen chickens and the coyote either eventually bled to death of died of a heart attack.

    Use buck for serious shooting and birdshot for birds


    THAT was about the funniest thing I've read in a looong time! Thank you!

    Would have been better to just let the poor coyote eat a chicken!
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  7. #22
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    Coyote is reportedly like everything else that doesn't sound savory. It tastes like...CHICKEN!
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    I've fired a .22LR through two double-sheetrock interior walls; and the bullet, or what was left ot it, disappeared into the netherworld. To me, that makes all arguments and concerns about "overpenetration" a moot issue. If you shoot, that bullet can scoot. Studs, insulation, cabinets, etc. can affect the penetration, but don't assume something will or will not penetrate most interior walls. Base your interior HD rounds on the most effective round you can handle and put them on target.

    If someone is in your house and intent on doing you harm, you and your family are already at risk! Stop the threat!

    The coyote I shot with #4 birdshot at 25-30 yards dropped like a rock. Maybe it should have taken shelter in a chicken coop.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post


    THAT was about the funniest thing I've read in a looong time! Thank you!

    Would have been better to just let the poor coyote eat a chicken!
    Yeah my cousin's wife still refers to it as "The Great Chicken Massacre" even though it happen one dove season 20 years ago.

    The coyote would have just gotten one or two chickens. But I did learn that when there is a coyote and 4 people blasting away with shotguns in their house chickens will fly, atleast up to coyote level
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I can tell you from personal experience that the very last thing I noticed during my defensive shooting was the recoil. Not really even the noise, just the smell.
    Not being consciously aware something happened doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it didn't have the full effect. When LEO were debriefed, they often think they shot one or two time when it was many more than that. They often don't realize another officer is right beside them shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...I'll reply when I have more time Tangle, but my point is, of all the times a year that a shotgun is fired in self defense, how many times has it penetrated a wall and injured an innocent person? How many times has an innocent person been hit by even a miss, forgetting about over penetration? I can probably count on one hand how many times, unless we count gang members shooting into crowds and hitting others besides their target.
    Just because something hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't or won't.With people living just a wall or so apart, especially in apartment complexes, the risk of wall penetration becomes more probable and of more concern.

    This is one of those cases where if it can happen, and ballistics and demos show it is very possible, and it does happen, it is a tragedy. What were the chances some terrorists could take down the World Trade Center? It had never happened before, but....

    Wasn't it in NY just recently that LEOs shot a number of innocent bystanders while trying to shoot a BG?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...All of my points can be applied to anyone if they take the time to get some training. So, it's not that the points are wrong, it's just that many think the gun is the answer when actually training and mindset is the answer, the gun is just the tool.
    I believe the gun is the answer. Otherwise we could just teach mindset and a gun wouldn't be needed. History shows us that the gun makes the difference, not the person. The NRA estimates in something like 95% of the times that a gun is used in SD, not a shot is fired. What makes the difference? The presence of the gun.

    It is estimated, John Lott, that guns are used in self defense about a million times a year. In all probability, the vast majority of those people had little training and yet prevailed.

    I now agree with Travis Costa and Chris Haley - the gun is a life-line rather than a tool. As they put it in one of their videos, it may be your only life-line.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...As for shooting under stress, enough practice will get you there, within reason. Shoot houses, force on force, running 100 yards then shooting or some other extreme exertion, will all help.
    I don't know of a shoot house within a 100 miles that I can shoot in without it costing a lot of money. I don't know of any place where FOF is available.

    I really don't think shooting tired is the same as thinking you are about to die if I don't shoot this guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Mindset is the biggest thing. We get the mind squared away and the rest will be much easier to handle.
    I've been told that over and over. I still carry a gun, and I still believe a person can prevail with a gun and little mindset as demonstrated many times a year.

    What is mindset?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here, not what I think or hope will happen.
    Your personal experiences far exceed most peoples opportunities.
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  11. #26
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    Why do people continue to think they can shoot birdshot with the expectation that it won't be able to penetrate two layers of common dry wall; and in the same breath hold the delusion that a load like that could possibly be effective at nutralizing a hardened criminal bent on rape or murder?

    If you want a round which has good performance in stopping a human target, yet readily fragments against hard surfaces with less chance of penetrating other rooms and endangering innocent people they should consider using a .223 carbine with modern defense loads.

    People have a bad habit of clinging to myths and fallacies based on erroneous assuptions and folklore. If they would just take the time, and make the effort to attend a defesive carbine course they would definitely have their eyes opened and have a lot of foolish notions readily dispelled.

    Not to mention the .223 AR platform is much easier to manage than any shotgun, and able to provide precision fire. Also with 30 rounds on tap, you can likely handle a whole group of armed invaders without having to perform a single reload. Already that is a huge advantage.
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  12. #27
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    ...I thought ladies and younguns are why God invented 20 ga. buckshot/slugs...lots more USER friendly than the 12...still take care of business quite well...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Not being consciously aware something happened doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it didn't have the full effect. When LEO were debriefed, they often think they shot one or two time when it was many more than that. They often don't realize another officer is right beside them shooting.


    Just because something hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't or won't.With people living just a wall or so apart, especially in apartment complexes, the risk of wall penetration becomes more probable and of more concern.

    This is one of those cases where if it can happen, and ballistics and demos show it is very possible, and it does happen, it is a tragedy. What were the chances some terrorists could take down the World Trade Center? It had never happened before, but....

    Wasn't it in NY just recently that LEOs shot a number of innocent bystanders while trying to shoot a BG?


    I believe the gun is the answer. Otherwise we could just teach mindset and a gun wouldn't be needed. History shows us that the gun makes the difference, not the person. The NRA estimates in something like 95% of the times that a gun is used in SD, not a shot is fired. What makes the difference? The presence of the gun.

    It is estimated, John Lott, that guns are used in self defense about a million times a year. In all probability, the vast majority of those people had little training and yet prevailed.

    I now agree with Travis Costa and Chris Haley - the gun is a life-line rather than a tool. As they put it in one of their videos, it may be your only life-line.


    I don't know of a shoot house within a 100 miles that I can shoot in without it costing a lot of money. I don't know of any place where FOF is available.

    I really don't think shooting tired is the same as thinking you are about to die if I don't shoot this guy.

    I've been told that over and over. I still carry a gun, and I still believe a person can prevail with a gun and little mindset as demonstrated many times a year.

    What is mindset?


    Your personal experiences far exceed most peoples opportunities.
    I can tell you that shooting with a high heart rate will help give you an idea of a defensive shoot. While Chris Costa does refer to it as a lifeline, he also understands it's a tool.

    I think you are taking my points way too literal. I didn't say roll without a gun, I said learn to fight dirty, fast and hard, then learn to fight with the gun. The gun is the tool, I can do some serious damage with an edged weapon or a bat, and I will if I have to. If I don't know how to fight, my chances are greatly reduced that I'll effectively stop a threat and handle it appropriately. Luckily, most bad guys are cowards, but every now and then, one is a fighter.

    Carrying a gun without training is about as stupid as defending yourself in court without any formal education. Sure, some succeed, but MANY do not.

    Travis and Chris will both tell you, right off the bat, that mindset is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Without it, you just have luck. Watch the videos again. Or, better yet, attend a Haley Strategic or Costa Ludus class. Mindset is one of the most important things they cover.

    Also, just because over penetration with injuries doesn't happen regularly DOES mean it's less likely to happen to me or someone else. Otherwise, it would happen often. Using cops as an example of marksmanship is like using my three year old as an example for proper spelling. LEO's, on average, hit with 1 out of 4 or 5 shots fired. Again, TRAINING and very often mindset. Remember, I train a lot of these guys.

    You know what, a few Glocks have kaboomed. Should I stop carrying one of the hundreds of thousands of Glocks out there because of a half dozen? And what are you talking about here anyway? You were the one saying birdshot was bad and to use buckshot, now you're concerned with overpentration again? Are you just disagreeing to disagree on this one?

    Mindset is the will to fight no matter what. Deputy Dinkheller is one great example of mindset working against you. He was reprimanded for drawing his weapon one week before his death. Without question, he was hesitant to shoot. When he did, he missed all but one shot. His mind was very likely not in the fight. On the flip side, look at Officer Jarod Reston working in the mall that got shot something like 7 times, then put the bad guy in a head lock and shot him twice in the head. His mind, even after being shot numerous times, was still in the fight. THAT is mindset.

    Another example is the CCW holder that had a clean back shot on a mall shooter, but instead yelled to drop the gun. The badguy turned and the CCW holder was not ready to take a life. he is now paralyzed.

    My personal experience doesn't necessarily make me more prepared, it just proves to me what I know to be true. And I can honestly say, without any doubt at all, recoil was not felt during my shooting. NOT ONE BIT. Not subconsciously, not obviously, not somewhat, just not at all. The scumbag animals trying to kill me were the concern and I would have been happy to fire a 300 mag in a pistol.

    For the record, without training, I could still likely pack a wound with combat gauze or perform a tracheotomy, with some verbal assistance. But, a combat medical class will assure I know how and better my odds of doing it right. Why the hell would I NOT get my mindset right and make myself a better, more willing fighter?
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #29
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    Jon,

    We've drifted way off track here. This thread is about a real-life incident of birdshot not working as a fight stopper. Then, because someone mentioned wall penetration issues, the topic broadened to wall penetration considerations.

    I posted a video to show how birdshot will penetrate a typical interior wall, not only penetrate but blast through the front and back of a pumpkin behind the wall, and blow the insides of the pumpkin all over the wall behind the pumpkin. Reduced recoil will do that and more because of the heavier pellet size.

    Hence there are two issues here, one, birdshot is inconsistent as a fight stopper and two, it has enough power to penetrate a wall and injure or kill someone on the other side of the wall.

    I may be misunderstanding you Jon, but you have pretty clearly stated that the risk of that happening is nil, and hence we don't have to be concerned about wall penetration. But then you turned around and gave examples of where it has happened. No one was hit, but the shots missed and struck walls. You went on to point out how poorly shot, be it bird or buck penetrates interior walls. Floors are different because they are much heavier, and tougher materials. Yet, we can go to videos all over YouTube and actually see what 00 and birdshot will penetrate.

    So IF you're saying we don't have to worry about a shot going toward a room with a loved one in it, or that you think that because it hasn't happened we don't have to worry about it, then I don't think we're ever gonna agree. If a shot breaks in the direction of a room of a loved one, I think there is a real danger to them, regardless of whether it's birdshot or buckshot.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Why the hell would I NOT get my mindset right and make myself a better, more willing fighter?
    See, Jon, this isn't about you. It's about all the people that have bought shotguns for SD and are trusting birdshot to stop the intruder and protect loved ones behind walls.

    So you answer your own question, why do millions of people by guns and rarely shoot them, train little if any, and put birdshot in their shotguns believing it will stop the BG, but won't penetrate walls so their loved ones behind those walls will be safe?
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