Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident.... - Page 3

Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

This is a discussion on Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident.... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I know of two local men,at different times, hit with bird shot in hunting accidents/negligence. Both of them went to the ground and required an ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    I know of two local men,at different times, hit with bird shot in hunting accidents/negligence. Both of them went to the ground and required an ambulance. 000 buck?A great load,but just about any load from any shot gun ,especially at close range,is a game changer.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Jon,

    We've drifted way off track here. This thread is about a real-life incident of birdshot not working as a fight stopper. Then, because someone mentioned wall penetration issues, the topic broadened to wall penetration considerations.

    I posted a video to show how birdshot will penetrate a typical interior wall, not only penetrate but blast through the front and back of a pumpkin behind the wall, and blow the insides of the pumpkin all over the wall behind the pumpkin. Reduced recoil will do that and more because of the heavier pellet size.

    Hence there are two issues here, one, birdshot is inconsistent as a fight stopper and two, it has enough power to penetrate a wall and injure or kill someone on the other side of the wall.

    I may be misunderstanding you Jon, but you have pretty clearly stated that the risk of that happening is nil, and hence we don't have to be concerned about wall penetration. But then you turned around and gave examples of where it has happened. No one was hit, but the shots missed and struck walls. You went on to point out how poorly shot, be it bird or buck penetrates interior walls. Floors are different because they are much heavier, and tougher materials. Yet, we can go to videos all over YouTube and actually see what 00 and birdshot will penetrate.

    So IF you're saying we don't have to worry about a shot going toward a room with a loved one in it, or that you think that because it hasn't happened we don't have to worry about it, then I don't think we're ever gonna agree. If a shot breaks in the direction of a room of a loved one, I think there is a real danger to them, regardless of whether it's birdshot or buckshot.
    My example was 00 buck and 9mm with only one of five or six shots penetrating fully through a wall. All the other stopped in the wall. I also never said they were all misses.

    Come on man, I NEVER said we don't have to worry about it. I said it can't control us and if we're too stupid to know what direction we're shooting or what are firearm is capable of doing, maybe we should rethink using a firearm for self defense.

    What I said didn't happen often is people actually getting hit. Find me more than 10 examples in the past decade. please. Experiences and the concern of a potential situation are two different things. People need to learn how to shoot if they're THAT concerned about hitting a family member. BUT, choosing an inadequate round is a pretty bad idea that can get you killed, depending on who you encounter. For me, i'll ALWAYS assume the person I'll encounter has at least as much fight in them as I do.

    Personally, I'm not TOO concerned with hitting a family member. I know my layout and I certainly know my ability and my weapons. I also know how to shoot under extreme stress and fight or flight. I also know what my experiences have been as well as the experiences of others I know. Then again, my primary home defense weapon is a 10.5" 5.56 loaded with 75gr TAP, which is considerably less likely to over penetrate than the other defensive choices out there.

    Regardless of all of this, birdshot is a seriously bad choice. A choice that can get you killed. Use enough gun and carry enough ammo. Also, learn how to shoot the darn thing and how to fight. Anyone not willing to do that, well.....

    Shooting through a couple of boards is very different than an interior or exterior wall of a home. I can set all kinds of stuff up to show penetration, but I can also give a number of examples where in real life, in didn't penetrate anywhere near what the backyard demos would have you believe.

    EDIT - The post I quoted seems to be a very different post than the one I read 30 minutes ago.... Did you completely edit it?
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Time out guys!

    I have the answer!

    Get thyself a double barrel shotgun, and load it with "cut shells." Hits flesh like a slug, but comes apart if it hits a solid object, limiting overpenetration risk. Think "poor man's Glaser safety slug" - but in 12 gauge! If you are seriously worried about this issue (live in an apartment, etc) then it is worthy of serious consideration.

    You're welcome!
    pgrass101 likes this.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Seems to me, aside from recoil, birdshot has all the potential liability and none of the advantages of buckshot - not a good trade.

    On the 20 vs 12, I've shot heavier loads out of 1187's (each appropriately chambered) and it seemed recoil was about the same due to the lighter weight of the 20 ga. I think the real advantage of the 20 is lighter weight, compactness, and greater maneuverability.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    I've mentioned this a few times before, but I'm in my third year of waterfowl hunting and have used #2, #3, #4 and BB, both standard velocity and high velocity. There are a good number of times where the bird doesn't die immediately. It sometimes takes another shot to kill the bird, especially if it's a goose. I've butchered almost 100 birds in the last few years and I can't tell you the number of times that the shot did not penetrate the breast. I've also found numerous geese with old, rusty shot in them from a previous shooting.

    Stick with the buckshot since your life may depend on it.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    My example was 00 buck and 9mm with only one of five or six shots penetrating fully through a wall. All the other stopped in the wall. I also never said they were all misses.
    You're saying that 00 and a 9mm won't penetrate an interior wall? I say they will with ease and have witnessed it first hand.

    Well, if they weren't misses, what did the bullets 'not miss' before they hit the walls?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Come on man, I NEVER said we don't have to worry about it. I said it can't control us and if we're too stupid to know what direction we're shooting or what are firearm is capable of doing, maybe we should rethink using a firearm for self defense.
    Hmmm, I don't remember you saying, "We can't let it control us." Maybe I missed that.

    There's a lot of difference in 'stupid' and people who are not well informed. Very smart people can be misinformed. And, there is a difference in 'stupid' and the way people react in life and death situations.

    My purpose in posting this thread is to relate that a LEO was killed as a result of having birdshot in his shotgun. Then it broadened to include that birdshot will penetrate walls and hence one can't depend on that as a protection mechanism for his family. There is a common notion promoted that birdshot is safer to use for home defense than 00 because it is believed that birdshot won't penetrate a wall. I'm trying to point out that that isn't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...What I said didn't happen often is people actually getting hit.
    See, there's that same thing again, it doesn't happen often. That means it has happened. It really doesn't matter how many. If one mother's child is killed because of a bullet penetrating a wall, it's a tragedy. And, if people are counting on birdshot to prevent such tragedies, I want them to know birdshot isn't the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...People need to learn how to shoot if they're THAT concerned about hitting a family member. BUT, choosing an inadequate round is a pretty bad idea that can get you killed, depending on who you encounter. For me, i'll ALWAYS assume the person I'll encounter has at least as much fight in them as I do.
    Here we go off track again. Is it wrong of me to point out that birdshot is not a consistent fight stopper? Is it wrong of me to point out with video evidence that birdshot will penetrate walls and does pose a serious threat if you shoot toward a wall with someone on the other side of it? Is it wrong of me to warn that birdshot is not the answer to family safety?

    I realize people need to learn how to shoot; but the reality is, many don't, and many that can't shoot turn to shotguns because they can't shoot and think the shotgun solves the problem - which of course it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Personally, I'm not TOO concerned with hitting a family member. I know my layout and I certainly know my ability and my weapons. I also know how to shoot under extreme stress and fight or flight. I also know what my experiences have been as well as the experiences of others I know.
    And again, Jon, this isn't about you. It's to thousands of other people out there that are very different than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Regardless of all of this, birdshot is a seriously bad choice. A choice that can get you killed.
    Isn't that exactly what I've indicated from the very start of this thread? Didn't the example I used in the OP show clearly that a LEO was killed because he had birdshot in his shotgun?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Use enough gun and carry enough ammo. Also, learn how to shoot the darn thing and how to fight. Anyone not willing to do that, well....
    Jon, this is not a training thread. It is a warning about the effectiveness, or better ineffectiveness, of birdshot from two aspects. One, it is not a good fight stopper, which I thought was evident from my OP. And two, as the thread broadened a bit, it addressed the misconception that birdshot is not a danger to a family member on the other side of a wall.

    When you say, "Anyone not willing to do that, well....", you realize you are addressing thousands of people? Do you really think the majority of gun owners get appropriate training?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...Shooting through a couple of boards is very different than an interior or exterior wall of a home. I can set all kinds of stuff up to show penetration, but I can also give a number of examples where in real life, in didn't penetrate anywhere near what the backyard demos would have you believe.
    Backyard demos? Through a couple of boards? Where'd you get that? The demos setup drywall using the construction dimensions and materials used in interior walls.

    Gunsite has a video of penetration through typical interior wall construction. I observed a number of penetration demos while at Blackwater Training Center, even shot in some of the demos.

    How about the BoxOTruth? How hard is it to set up a typical interior wall and shoot it? Gunsite did walls with and without insulation, and buck and bird went right through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    ...EDIT - The post I quoted seems to be a very different post than the one I read 30 minutes ago.... Did you completely edit it?
    Yes, I completely edited it, because it was about mindset and tactics, which this thread is not about.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Seems to me, aside from recoil, birdshot has all the potential liability and none of the advantages of buckshot - not a good trade.
    That would be exactly the point I intended this thread to make. You summed it up well.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...my buckshot/slugs are in the guns...in the house...my birdshot's in the garage...in case I ever go hunting...I taught my sons no matter WHAT they pick up for defense...inside a house it's best if they can drop to a knee and shoot at a slightly upward angle to stop the threat...because these walls ain't gonna stop much...

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    If I may interject what I witnessed concerning birdshot. At one point I was working as an EMT for a private ambulance service. We were called to what was dispatched as a live shooting victim.
    However upon arrival beating the police there we found one man about 200 lbs obviously dead for at least a day and a broken window. Long story short we were asked to transport body by the coroner to the local hospital for xray of the wound.
    The weapon was a 12 ga pump shotgun loaded with high brass no 6 shot. Victim had been shot with the muzzle pressing into his stomach.
    Having to stay with the body to transport it to the coroners funeral home after xray I was able to see the xray itslef.

    At flesh pressed to muzzle range the shot had penetrated about a third of the way thru the body front to back and spread inside to approx the size of the average fist. While it did kill the victim it didnt appear it had done so instantly as he had managed to sit down on a couch. Coroners consensus was that the shot wound itself may have been survivable. However the damage done by the muzzle blast, ie hot gases going into the body with no place else to go had actually been more deadly than the shot itself.

    This penetration was as I said muzzle to flesh from high brass hi power no six shot. You can make whatever guess you like what the penetration would have been from 30 feet away. For me I load with hot 00 buckshot.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    You're saying that 00 and a 9mm won't penetrate an interior wall? I say they will with ease and have witnessed it first hand.

    Well, if they weren't misses, what did the bullets 'not miss' before they hit the walls?


    Hmmm, I don't remember you saying, "We can't let it control us." Maybe I missed that.

    There's a lot of difference in 'stupid' and people who are not well informed. Very smart people can be misinformed. And, there is a difference in 'stupid' and the way people react in life and death situations.

    My purpose in posting this thread is to relate that a LEO was killed as a result of having birdshot in his shotgun. Then it broadened to include that birdshot will penetrate walls and hence one can't depend on that as a protection mechanism for his family. There is a common notion promoted that birdshot is safer to use for home defense than 00 because it is believed that birdshot won't penetrate a wall. I'm trying to point out that that isn't true.


    See, there's that same thing again, it doesn't happen often. That means it has happened. It really doesn't matter how many. If one mother's child is killed because of a bullet penetrating a wall, it's a tragedy. And, if people are counting on birdshot to prevent such tragedies, I want them to know birdshot isn't the answer.


    Here we go off track again. Is it wrong of me to point out that birdshot is not a consistent fight stopper? Is it wrong of me to point out with video evidence that birdshot will penetrate walls and does pose a serious threat if you shoot toward a wall with someone on the other side of it? Is it wrong of me to warn that birdshot is not the answer to family safety?

    I realize people need to learn how to shoot; but the reality is, many don't, and many that can't shoot turn to shotguns because they can't shoot and think the shotgun solves the problem - which of course it doesn't.


    And again, Jon, this isn't about you. It's to thousands of other people out there that are very different than you.


    Isn't that exactly what I've indicated from the very start of this thread? Didn't the example I used in the OP show clearly that a LEO was killed because he had birdshot in his shotgun?


    Jon, this is not a training thread. It is a warning about the effectiveness, or better ineffectiveness, of birdshot from two aspects. One, it is not a good fight stopper, which I thought was evident from my OP. And two, as the thread broadened a bit, it addressed the misconception that birdshot is not a danger to a family member on the other side of a wall.

    When you say, "Anyone not willing to do that, well....", you realize you are addressing thousands of people? Do you really think the majority of gun owners get appropriate training?


    Backyard demos? Through a couple of boards? Where'd you get that? The demos setup drywall using the construction dimensions and materials used in interior walls.

    Gunsite has a video of penetration through typical interior wall construction. I observed a number of penetration demos while at Blackwater Training Center, even shot in some of the demos.

    How about the BoxOTruth? How hard is it to set up a typical interior wall and shoot it? Gunsite did walls with and without insulation, and buck and bird went right through it.


    Yes, I completely edited it, because it was about mindset and tactics, which this thread is not about.
    I agreed with you from the start and you seem to have disagreed just to disagree. Whatever works. And regardless of what this thread is intended to be, training is a huge factor in everything.

    If you ever read my posts, you'll see from the start, I've said and linked to how ineffective birdshot is as a defensive load.

    I am saying that all but one of the 00 buck and 9mm failed to penetrate fully through the interior/exterior walls of this particular house. One shot from the 12 gauge only penetrated the couch pillow and back then clearly stuck in the wall.

    At the same time, I've seen 22 penetrate interior walls. I've seen #2 buckshot penetrate an interior wall. I saw a 32 penetrate a person's face and lodge in the windshield of the 4-runner. I've seen all kinds of things, both expected and unexpected.

    The point is, how much of a problem is it? My primary concern is the ability to stop the fight, not the ammunition's ability to penetrate a wall. Again, if someone fires and an errant round impacts a family member, that is absolutely ALL on the shooter.

    ...and yes. I think everyone owning a gun for self defense should learn how the hell to use it and what can happen if they don't. Nobody has to like that. Ignorance is bliss until you shoot your wife accidentally.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  11. #41
    Member Array bodhisattvya's Avatar
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    "Use plated 00 Buckshot." Can someone explain to me why I'd want to use plated buckshot? It'd be like using FMJ ammo in a rifle or pistol instead of hollowpoints or more aptly softpoints. Sure it may penetrate better, but it's going to cause a lot less traumatic injury to the perp. I want my lead buckshot to flatten once it hits it's intended target. At the distances typically involved in self-defense, patterning shouldn't be an issue. I'm not flaming Box O' Truth, I'm just trying to flesh out the rationale.

  12. #42
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    "Use plated 00 Buckshot." Can someone explain to me why I'd want to use plated buckshot? It'd be like using FMJ ammo in a rifle or pistol instead of hollowpoints or more aptly softpoints.
    I'd have to disagree on that. A round, lead ball is no where near equivalent (ballistically) to a handgun bullet. Your average FMG bullet does not penetrate "better" it penetrates too much. You also need to remember that buckshot may used at any number of distances and at the longer ones (say 25 yds+) you will likely need all the penetration you can get.

    One point I'd like to mention is that, yes, just about any cartridge/shell etc., will penetrate drywall. It is less a question of whether it will penetrate it, but one of, "how lethal will it be after it has done so?"

    Another thing, is that folks who have recommended bird shot for HD use, have always said it should only be used at "across the room distances". This is not 10 yards. This is 5-10 FEET. In a relatively small house or apartment, unless you and the attacker are standing with your back's to the wall, you are going to be in that 5-10 ft range. If you anticipate firing at further distances than that, then don't use bird shot.
    The weapon was a 12 ga pump shotgun loaded with high brass no 6 shot. Victim had been shot with the muzzle pressing into his stomach.
    The "gut shot" is notorious for not killing quickly, with any hand held firearm.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I have killed deer with #4 buckshot and 00 buck shot. the #4 took longer and more shots to kill the animal. The 00 buckshot worked more efficantly. Both rounds would knock down the animal but with the #4 if you did not put more rounds into the animal it would get back up and run. For me I only use 00 Buckshot full power loads.
    Patinthehat, There are several recoil reducing devices that can be installed in the butt of the shotgun. Take that shotgun to a gun shop and have one installed. Recoil problem solve. Then use reduced recoil loads of buckshot.
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  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    Birdshot is for the birds, buckshot is for the buck and slugs are for the thugs.
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    As I'm ducking behind my couch typing this with a fire extinguisher next to me when I get flamed...

    In defense of using bird shot for inside "home" personal defense? Even #8, 2-3/4" bird shot will do a number on a home invader at maximum indoor distances of 10-12 yards. How many of you could possibly shoot more than 36 feet in your home?

    For fun I shoot bird shot at home indoor shooting distances at watermelon, cantaloupe and 5 inch thick phone books. At those distances there's not much difference between bird shot and an one ounce lead rifled slug.

    However, and there's always a however... I personally use 00 buck shot because I never know when a rabid skunk, opossum, raccoon or the dreaded coyote at my chicken coop will materialize.

    For those that want to give the very best, 00 buck shot.
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