Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

This is a discussion on Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident.... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is from the Box0truth, The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 4 . He was comparing 20 gauge ammo to ...

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Thread: Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

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    Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

    This is from the Box0truth, The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 4 .

    He was comparing 20 gauge ammo to 12 gauge and one of the loads was birdshot. He got very poor penetration with both 12 and 20, but this update is what I wanted you to see:

    Update:
    I received a note from a police officer that asked me not to mention names or locations about this true event.

    A police officer was involved in some shotgun training, where they used #6 birdshot in the training due to lower cost. After the training session, he forgot to remove the birdshot and replace it with 00 Buckshot, the normal carry load.

    That night, while on patrol, he confronted a couple of burglars and was in a shootout with them. He shot both of them with his shotgun, but forgot that he had it loaded with birdshot.

    They killed the officer and escaped.

    Never use birdshot against goblins. Use plated 00 Buckshot.
    There have been other outcomes with birdshot, but from all the reading I've done birdshot seems to be inconsistent as a fight stopper. Also, realize we know very little about this particular shooting, e.g. the range, where the shot hit the BGs, or even if it hit the BGs.
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    That's a useful data point, and certainly consistent with my coyote incident many moons ago.

    Defensive uses demand buckshot, unless birdshot is absolutely all you've got.
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    Its called bird shot because its for BIRDS!!
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Yep. Unless you've got a gang of outlaw quail terrorizing the neighborhood, only buckshot & slugs go into a social shotgun. Thanks for the article Tangle!
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    Shot a lot of different game with birdshot,and never had the shot penetrate all the way thru,so when comparing the thickness of the rabbits and squirrels to a human your not gonna penetrate thru to the vital organs
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    The only thing my wife has at the house is a 12g. I keep it loaded with dove shot 7.5 1oz & full choke. The recoil is low enough she can follow up with multiple shots. She wont have any shots over about 10 ft in our house. i think 5 shots from this into a bg will do the job. now granted i can see where in other situations such as the police officer's, it wouldnt do a bit of good.
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    Well, I should have mentioned this in the OP - it is commonly held that birdshot is preferable where inadvertent 'wall' penetration could pose a danger to an innocent person.

    Check out this video about that:

    Remington 870 Wall test: "If a pumpkin was a head" - YouTube
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    patinthehat, you are about to reap the wrath of dissension about your HD with birdshot opinion. Before the howlers arrive, might I alternatively suggest low-recoil buckshot? Yes, full-choked dove shot at 10 feet makes a big ol' mess. And 5 shots are (always) better than one shot. But, time & time again, the real-world reports that birdshot isn't as effective as we think it...SHOULD be. IMHO, the solution to just too simple & easy not to do.
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    I've shot a coyote with #6 shot with three of my cousins shooting at it (also with bird shot) in a confined chicken house. We killed about 4 dozen chickens and the coyote either eventually bled to death of died of a heart attack.

    Use buck for serious shooting and birdshot for birds
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    hmm you make a good point ghost. she has become a lot less scared over the past few months with guns. i think it might be time to head to the range with some different loads and see how she does. since everything has been going on, she has been warming up more to guns. last thing i want is her to get hurt and scared and lose all the progress we made. if she dont like guns, then i cant buy more i guess the only other reason for the bird shot is the whole wall penetration thing. I know she does worry about our 3 year old and it is very likely if any shots were fired, they would be in the general area of her room.
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    Quote Originally Posted by patinthehat View Post
    hmm you make a good point ghost. she has become a lot less scared over the past few months with guns. i think it might be time to head to the range with some different loads and see how she does.
    As suggested, try some reduced recoil - Hornady TAP 9 pellet 00 @ 1100 fps would be a good one and there are others too, but that one is about as 'reduced' as it gets. The problem is, right now, it's hard to find ammo of any kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by patinthehat View Post
    ...since everything has been going on, she has been warming up more to guns. last thing i want is her to get hurt and scared and lose all the progress we made.
    Absolutely - very wise!

    Quote Originally Posted by patinthehat View Post
    ...if she dont like guns, then i cant buy more
    LOL! Ah-ha, now the truth comes out .Wise again!

    Quote Originally Posted by patinthehat View Post
    ...i guess the only other reason for the bird shot is the whole wall penetration thing. I know she does worry about our 3 year old and it is very likely if any shots were fired, they would be in the general area of her room.
    As can be seen from the vid I linked, birdshot does penetrate interior walls and still has enough power to blow through both sides of a pumpkin. So the birdshot really doesn't provide the protection you need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Well, I should have mentioned this in the OP - it is commonly held that birdshot is preferable where inadvertent 'wall' penetration could pose a danger to an innocent person.

    Check out this video about that:

    Remington 870 Wall test: "If a pumpkin was a head" - YouTube
    I don't think I can find more than a couple instances over the years, if I really really search, of someone being shot accidentally after someone fired in defense, missed, then the buckshot or bullet penetrated the wall and hit an innocent person.

    People need to learn to shoot and know the layout of their home if that's the case.

    As expected, there's already some in this thread, with proof posted, defending birdshot. It is made for birds. If one doesn't trust themselves to hit their target at CQB distances, get some training or use a baseball bat instead.

    Know the layout of your home. Know what is behind each and every wall. Learn how to shoot accurately under stress. DO NOT choose ammo based on lesser recoil and lesser penetration. Practice and these things will be of little concern.

    I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating. I was recently in a home (a very nice home - not sure the difference that makes in construction) where 9mm and 12 gauge buckshot was fired. Three 12 gauge and three or four 9mm, if I remember correctly. Only one penetrated completely through any of the walls.

    Of the 12 gauge, one went through the couch and only three or four pellets made it through and into the wall, which barely even penetrated enough to stay in it and were still visible. Another was fired upward in the kitchen, impacting the corner of a cabinet door with glass panels and into the wall/ceiling. The pellets could easily be dug out of the wall with a pocket knife, they did not penetrate through. The third shot hit the floor.

    With the 9mm, one was fired into the stairwell area and penetrated the wall and stuck in the brick facing the inside. This was inside fired into an interior/exterior wall. The other was fired into a living room wall near the stairwell. It penetrated the wall and was found laying on the outside patio. There was one or two more, but I just can't remember where they were fired. If it was something worth mentioning, I'm sure I'd remember. I'll look through my notes and a post I made on Lightfighter about the shooting to see if anything I just said was wrong and if I have the info on the other bullets.

    So, not that it's a non-issue, but it certainly should not force us to use underpowered ammunition in our defensive firearms. Self defense or duty, this is serious stuff not to be taken lightly. If something recoils to hard, then train around it. If we're worried about the slim possibility of injuring someone due to overpenetration, then we need to learn the layout of the home, or switch to a 5.56 with 75gr TAP, which is LESS likely to overpentrate than buckshot or any qaulity defensive handgun ammo.

    EDIT - I DO understand wanting to use birdshot for women or children when learning to shoot. BUT, I still think when set up for defense, it should be loaded with buckshot, low recoil is fine. From personal experience, I can assure you that the last thing most will be concerned with is recoil.
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    Distinguished Member Array Brady's Avatar
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    I keep 2 inch 00Buck for first 2 rounds in the HD shotty, so my daughter can use it. After 2 shots, her adrenaline will be up for follow up shots if necessary.
    I get these at J&G sales, though they're not listed right now. Probably sold out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    LOL! Ah-ha, now the truth comes out .Wise again!
    Lol as much as we guys like to admit wearing the pants, when it comes to things like this the wife is in charge. o sure you can buy it without her "blessing" but i do enough to piss my wife off. Don't need to add to the list!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    EDIT - I DO understand wanting to use birdshot for women or children when learning to shoot. BUT, I still think when set up for defense, it should be loaded with buckshot, low recoil is fine. From personal experience, I can assure you that the last thing most will be concerned with is recoil.
    Your point is well taken here. I talked to the wifey and she said she would be willing to go to the range and practice some set up "scenarios" with bird shot and work up to low recoil. then she said i gotta quit looking for excuses to go to the range lol.
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    Because it comes up a lot: Birdshot for HD/SD - FWIW, a real LE shooting incident....

    I shot a football helmet with Winchester universal none of the shot went into the helmet.

    00 buck is really gonna be the best choice or HD.

    I am also someone who does not subscribe to the alternating 00 slug combo that some people swear by.

    A- You probably won't either remember what comes next or it won't be the correct round or

    B- It will blow a whole through everything in its path including things you didn't want it to hit.

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