Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

This is a discussion on Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by munch520 That's a little misleading given the data below. 1:7 has been recognized many times as the most versatile twist rate. I've ...

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Thread: Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munch520 View Post
    That's a little misleading given the data below. 1:7 has been recognized many times as the most versatile twist rate. I've had consistent sub moa results from XM193 at 110 yards out of a 18" 1:7 MK12.
    Congratulations, you got good results shooting a NATO spec cartridge out of a mil-spec rifle. The XM193 was the standard issue ball round for NATO forces when the M16-A2 was developed. Designers had to take logistics into account so they had to make the new rifling compatable with the existing stocks of ammo as well as the new spec round.
    From Andrew Tuohy:
    The 1/7 twist barrel did not overstabilize any of the ammunition types. It was remarkably accurate with some of the lighter bullets. Although it generally shot better groups with the heavier projectiles, it was accurate and precise enough with the light bullets for almost any purpose, including varmint hunting.

    https://plus.google.com/app/basic/st...z4pwzawc3spf50
    "precise enough" is a matter of opinion. If you look at his chart you will see that sub 45 grain bullet group size out of the 1:12 is about 30% smaller than his average out of the 1:7 barrel. The group size for 35 grain bullets out of the 1:12 barrel is about half the size of the group from the 1:7
    From Molon:
    Contrary to some of the nonsense you may have heard around here about fast twist barrels not being able to shoot light-weight bullets accurately, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired from 100 yards using 55 grain BlitzKings from a 1:7.7" twist barrel. While a fast twist barrel is not the ideal twist for light-weight bullets, as you can see from the target below, sub-MOA groups can be obtained with light-weight bullets fired from a fast twist barrel.
    Again we are back to a 55 grain bullet. 55 grain may be a light bullet to NATO but it is not to varmint hunters.

    People around here seem to be big on the NRA and what they have to say so let's see what they said in the American Rifleman in 2011
    With 40- to 50-grain varmint bullets, the .223 Rem. is deadly on prairie dogs, ground squirrels and gophers out past 400 yards. For larger vermin like ground hogs and rock chucks, shooting them inside 300 yards provides a lot more bullet upset due to the higher impact velocities.
    Now if you look at the chart from the link you posted would you say that for a prarie dog hunter who likes the ballistics of a 35grain bullet that a 1:7 twist rate is a good choice?
    Later they say,
    As a rule of thumb, if the heaviest bullet you will be shooting is 50 grains or less, the 1 in 12 twist should provide good accuracy. If you want to be able to accurately shoot bullets that weigh at least 60 grains, go with the 1 in 9 twist. And finally, if you plan to shoot the really long and heavy bullets, like the Bergers, a twist rate of 1 in 8 or even 1 in 7 is a good idea. For most common use or hunting applications, the 1 in 9 twist is the way to go and will stabilize the light 35- to 40-grain bullets well enough for you to shoot little groups and hit little targets.
    In a handloading article Shooting Times had this to say,
    Match rifles in .223 Remington, the AR15 in particular, are available with barre
    ls in a variety of rifling twist rates. Making proper choices among the various bullet weights boils down to a simple matter of how slow or quick the rifling pitch is. As a rule, optimum twist rate for bullets weighing 40 to 55 grains is 1:12 inches–although as previously mentioned, some rifles with that twist rate will handle some bullets as heavy as 64 grains.

    Read more: Handloading The .223 Remington For The AR15
    So again it comes back to what someone wants the rifle for. If you want a McRifle to shoot milsurp or NATO spec ammo then yes, you can't go wrong with a so called mil-spec rifle. If on the other hand you have a specific purpose for your rifle, like small critter shooting at long range, a mil-spec rifle could be a poor choice.
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    We are talking about a brand and its adherence or departure from mil spec. In such comparison I consider original and intended use. A fighting gun.

    Anything else, including its competence for squirrel assassination, is secondary.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Congratulations, you got good results shooting a NATO spec cartridge out of a mil-spec rifle. The XM193 was the standard issue ball round for NATO forces when the M16-A2 was developed. Designers had to take logistics into account so they had to make the new rifling compatable with the existing stocks of ammo as well as the new spec round.
    Considering the gun was designed for MK262, I was pleasantly surprised.

    Agreed that use tailors the discussion. But again the topic isn't about the best varmint gun, 3 gun, etc. option. It's about this brand and its pros and cons.

    Either way, my 1:7s hit all type of our farm vermin just fine. From squirrels to coyotes, 50gr-77gr works out of my guns, all of which are 1:7. I've gotta special order if I ever want sub 50gr as no one carries it.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    As a matter of fact, yes I can. Extruded 6061 vs extruded 7075, meaning about 30 lbs more break strength. Better contact in the threads vs commercial tubes is also a good thing. The catch is knowing who is making true mil-spec receiver extensions and not just using mil-spec dimensions on extruded 6061 tubes; companies like Bravo Co, Colt, Daniel Defense, and Vltor are good to go.
    Some might call it semantics but what have stated is that mil-spec tube is stronger. That is not the question. The question was if it was mechanically more reliable. For it to be more reliable we would have to show a failure rate of the commercial tubes being higher than the mil-spec. If the commercial tubes have a zero failure rate how can something be more reliable than that?
    Is the anchor chain of the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan more mechanically reliable at holding a childs party balloon than it's arresting wires are? While there is no doubt the chain is stronger the wires are strong enough that the additional strength of the chain is irrelevant.


    Cost-benefit over large-scale production (consider that the TDP has manufacturing requirements too). TiN is also highly IR reflective. Phosphate coating also makes a better base layer for additional coatings due to being porous.
    And these are very important qualities for a government equiping an army. But to John Q. Public who is not buying millions of rifles the cost benefit or IR qualities are not necessarily relevant. Some folks like shiny stuff on their rifles. All they may care about is corrosion and wear resistance.



    The answer is in the material properties of the metals used, and titanium is a poor material for the application. Ti firing pins break more often than steel firing pins. Additionally, no evidence exists to suggest the reduced mass/inertia of a titanium firing pin providing tangible benefit over the common steel firing pins. That $35 is better spent buying 7 steel firing pins.
    Excellent answer that I agree with whole heartedly. But there are folks out there that will insist on the inertia stuff.



    Arbitrarily decided, but it was chosen as another safety feature. The trigger itself, though, is more durable than most aftermarket options (Geissele a very notable/noteworthy exception.)
    Kind of like the NY trigger on a Glock. They have to build for the lowest common denominator that the weapon will be issued to. While it may be acceptable for a combat weapon for average grunts, spec ops types who have the option generally have their triggers improved to suit their own tastes, much like those of us in the civilian world get to do. I have no problem with the govt. spec trigger in my carbines but in my rifle I moved up slightly to the Armalite match trigger.
    I do not know any serious rifle shooters that would call a mil-spec trigger pull "superior" to any of the quality aftermarket units.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Some might call it semantics but what have stated is that mil-spec tube is stronger. That is not the question. The question was if it was mechanically more reliable. For it to be more reliable we would have to show a failure rate of the commercial tubes being higher than the mil-spec. If the commercial tubes have a zero failure rate how can something be more reliable than that?
    Is the anchor chain of the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan more mechanically reliable at holding a childs party balloon than it's arresting wires are? While there is no doubt the chain is stronger the wires are strong enough that the additional strength of the chain is irrelevant.
    The commercial extension has a break strength of 45lbs vs mil spec at 75lbs. Extra strength/rigidity is definitely a good thing on a receiver extension as it takes the brunt of force during drops and the like.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munch520 View Post
    We are talking about a brand and its adherence or departure from mil spec. In such comparison I consider original and intended use. A fighting gun.

    Anything else, including its competence for squirrel assassination, is secondary.
    But the OP did not ask if Double Star was mil-spec, he asked if they were any good. The OP did not say they were thinking of a fighting rifle. The OP did not state an intended use for their rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by munch520 View Post
    Considering the gun was designed for MK262, I was pleasantly surprised.

    Agreed that use tailors the discussion. But again the topic isn't about the best varmint gun, 3 gun, etc. option. It's about this brand and its pros and cons.

    Either way, my 1:7s hit all type of our farm vermin just fine. From squirrels to coyotes, 50gr-77gr works out of my guns, all of which are 1:7. I've gotta special order if I ever want sub 50gr as no one carries it.
    So since use tailors the discussion, and the OP did not state an intended use how are we to properly judge it's pros and cons? As far as ammo goes local availablility varies. At my Bass Pro I can frequently find sub fifty grain stuff but nothing between 52 and 70 grains.
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  8. #37
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    But the OP did not ask if Double Star was mil-spec, he asked if they were any good. The OP did not say they were thinking of a fighting rifle. The OP did not state an intended use for their rifle.
    Mil spec is the only metric that exists. Metric(s) are used to determine "good" or "bad". So yes good and bad in this discussion are measured by the metric in place. Don't like it? Go change it.

    You're right he did not. So I defaulted to a recommendation based on the intended use. If someone asks me my thoughts on a hammer, I assume they'll be hammering nails with it.

    If he wants a plinker and is 100% positive he'll never need it to defend life, then there's far cheaper options. High point comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So since use tailors the discussion, and the OP did not state an intended use how are we to properly judge it's pros and cons?
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    At my Bass Pro I can frequently find sub fifty grain stuff but nothing between 52 and 70 grains.
    That sucks
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munch520 View Post
    Mil spec is the only metric that exists. Metric(s) are used to determine "good" or "bad". So yes good and bad in this discussion are measured by the metric in place. Don't like it? Go change it.

    You're right he did not. So I defaulted to a recommendation based on the intended use. If someone asks me my thoughts on a hammer, I assume they'll be hammering nails with it.

    If he wants a plinker and is 100% positive he'll never need it to defend life, then there's far cheaper options. High point comes to mind.
    And here we are back to assumptions you are making. Your use of mil-spec as your metric assumes the person is intending the rifle to be a combat rifle and mil-spec must be good. As I have pointed out there are aspects of mil-spec that are merely average or for some uses down right lousy. Instead of just running on that assumption why not actually find out what their intention is? Your generic sixteen ounce claw hammer is going to suck for driving railroad spikes and your sixteen pound spike maul is not particularly well suited for upholstery work. A ball peen hammer is semi useful for a carpenter but not as good as a framing hammer of a claw hammer.

    But yeah, you can hammer nails with any of them.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    Jesus. And here you go putting words in my mouth.

    If the OP chimes in and tells us, then we'll know for certain what his use is. Until then, everyone is speculating. Including you. Since its a friggin weapon, it's fair to assume he may plan to one day stake his life on it.

    Did I ever say it was the end all? No. If you'll refer back you'll see I said it was a good STARTING POINT. Ill keep using it as a basis for comparison, regardless of how much people like you try to pick it apart.

    For the record my favorite gun isn't mil spec. It's built based on that but has a number of non compliant parts that I feel are improvements
    -12" barrel
    -small gas port
    -vltor a5
    -geissele trigger

    And with that I'm done responding. We get it, you don't like mil spec and you know better. Duly noted.
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I have no problem with mil spec. What I have a problem with is people perpetuating the myth that a rifle has to be mil spec to be good.
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array munch520's Avatar
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    Input on Doublestar AR-15 rifles

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I have no problem with mil spec. What I have a problem with is people perpetuating the myth that a rifle has to be mil spec to be good.
    Where did I say that?

    Always said it is a STARTING. POINT. Not "has to be". Not "end all be all".
    Monotony is the awful reward for the careful

    How can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods?

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I give up.
    Amen
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    When did I say you said it?
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  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Hoplyte's Avatar
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    To weigh back in on the topic, one of the uses would be, if necessary, for self-defense.
    atctimmy and munch520 like this.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    This has been a really nice read, although I'm a little disappointed I didn't get to hear more from mcp1810 and munch520. Next time I guess.
    munch520 likes this.
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