Shotguns: Am I gonna have to give up shooting shotguns???

This is a discussion on Shotguns: Am I gonna have to give up shooting shotguns??? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've been shooting my shotguns a lot lately, mostly experimenting with different loads, well, the one's I can find, and some are pretty potent, e.g. ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 29
Like Tree2Likes

Thread: Shotguns: Am I gonna have to give up shooting shotguns???

  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647

    Shotguns: Am I gonna have to give up shooting shotguns???

    I've been shooting my shotguns a lot lately, mostly experimenting with different loads, well, the one's I can find, and some are pretty potent, e.g. Winchester SuperX 3" 1 oz slug at 1760 fps, and surprizingly the one that seems to recoil hardest, is not the aforementioned one but a Federal Maximum 1-1/4 oz slug at 1520 fps.

    It is interesting that between the two, the 'awesome' Winchester 1 oz at 1760 fps has an energy of 3006 ft-lbs and the Federal 1-1/4 oz has an energy of 'only' 2802 ft-lbs. So why does the Federal feel like it has more recoil? Because it does! The answer is in momentum. The Winchester 1 oz has 3.416 lb-sec of momentum where the Federal 1-1/4 oz has 3.688 lb-sec of momentum. That's only an 8% difference, but it feels like more; I've noticed it everytime I've shot the two back to back and that was before I realized the difference in the physics, so I wasn't 'favoring' anything. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Federal is firing closer to spec than the Winchester out of my 18.5" barrel. I think I'm feeling more than 8% difference.

    Well, enough drift, back to the topic at hand.

    Soooo, I shoot 30 - 50 rounds each time I shoot, various loads, not just the 'heavy' stuff, usually a combination of heavy slugs and buckshot and some birdshot. Lately, I've been shooting either a Benelli M2 or M4. Yesterday I shot the M4 and here's where the problem arises.

    I noticed yesterday afternoon, some discomfort in back of my shoulder and the side of my neck, kinda like one of those 'cricks' , mild, but ever present. Then there's some muscle/ligament tenderness on the top, outside 'point' of my shoulder. I'm not experiencing bruising or muscle soreness from shooting the shotgun, that's only from the bow.

    I'm becoming concerned that this may be an accumulative injury from shotgunning, especially with heavy loads. Of course my bow shooting may be contributing to the issue too. I may have done too much too quickly. Hopefully I just need a rest.

    I have a hard time 'throttling' myself back. What starts out with every intention as 24 bow shots (6 arrows x 4) winds up being double that. Shotgunning is not as bad, as I only take the ammo I intend to shoot - well sort of sometimes.

    So far, I've backed off on the bow - no shooting for a week, and I think I'll shoot reduced recoil loads through my shotguns and see how things go.

    I dearly love shotguns and love shooting them, especially some of those 'bigger' loads. I'll probably try out some of those loads when I go hog hunting in May if that materializes. So, if it's the loads causing the problem, I'm gonna be really disappointed.

    I hope some of you are going to read this and realize I'm doing something wrong that I can adjust and keep shooting.

    FWIW, I'm just under 6 feet tall, right at 185 lbs, climb trees for fun and exercise, so it's not like I'm inactive or a couch potatoe. The problem may be that I'm 67 years old, but I really don't look it and I've still got good muscle strength and tone, but none of that helps aging joints and I guess my real concern is that if this soreness continues, it could lead to more permanent problems.

    OK, tell me what I want to hear
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,676
    I think the best advice would be to talk to your doctor. We cannot diagnose you over the Internet!

    Feel better!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger LCP (2), LCR, Mini 14; Remington 870; Marlin 336 .30-30
    CT Lasers

  4. #3
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I think the best advice would be to talk to your doctor. We cannot diagnose you over the Internet!

    Feel better!
    True, but there are likely those that have experienced this, have taught shooters that have experienced this, or similar things that have a common solution that pertains more to shotgun technique than a medical problem. I'm not sure a doctor could diagnose shooting issues that cause the problem.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  5. #4
    Sponsor
    Array DRM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Near Historic Williamsburg, Virginia
    Posts
    612

    Lightbulb

    Tangle,

    Take a lesson from foot ball. They square up and drive the other guy backwards. So, try squaring the shoulders up more and move the butt stock out of the pocket and onto the pec with centerline of bore under the dominant eye.

    This pic below is not a shotty, but the presentation is exactly the same. We're having good results with entry team guys running both the shotty and the M4's. You may have to shorten the stock a bit, depends.



    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Shooting Coach & Gunsmith
    Tactical Shooting Academy & Custom Shop
    www.TacticalShooting.com

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    7,887
    Do everything you want to do, but moderation is the key. I have the same issue in the gym. I lift too heavy before I am really prepared. Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you are fully prepared to do it.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #6
    Member Array FLMOPE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Central IL
    Posts
    220
    Hope you feel better soon. Getting older sucks but it does beat the heck out of the alternative.
    "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

    "My dog is smarter than your honor student."

  8. #7
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    9,532
    Tangle, you didn't mention this in your post, but if you're shooting those heavy loads from the bench, nearly all the recoil is directed at your shoulder and back, from the waist up. That's a sure recipe for aching body parts! Shooting from a standing position allows your legs and the full mass of your body to be engaged in resisting the recoil.

    Also, a tip from a guy who spent too long dealing with crippling back pain (but better now) - stay ahead of the pain. Give your body a chance to recover, then work back into the bow and heavy loads gradually. Pain is a reaction to inflammation and creates its own set of adverse body reactions, so using Advil or your NSAI of choice in anticipation of painful activities is also a good idea.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

  9. #8
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    Tangle,

    Take a lesson from foot ball. They square up and drive the other guy backwards. So, try squaring the shoulders up more and move the butt stock out of the pocket and onto the pec with centerline of bore under the dominant eye.
    Yep, I've been working with that for a while, but drifted back to the pocket thing.

    I have to say the 'pec' position has a physics advantage. When a hard recoiling gun is in the pocket there is a significant increase in the 'torque arm' length which will impart significant twist on the spine as well as knock the shoulder rearward, which is what I'm suspicious is happening to me because I'm mounting the gun in the pocket. I have experienced lower back discomfort after a lot of shooting and that again is a torque of the spine.

    Further, the pec mount puts more mass behind the gun to handle recoil better.

    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    ...This pic below is not a shotty, but the presentation is exactly the same. We're having good results with entry team guys running both the shotty and the M4's. You may have to shorten the stock a bit, depends.
    Interesting you should say that! I just recently put a shorter stock on my Benelli M4:



    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Do everything you want to do, but moderation is the key. I have the same issue in the gym. I lift too heavy before I am really prepared. Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you are fully prepared to do it.
    Right on! I wonder how many times I've 'learned' that over the years
    DRM likes this.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  10. #9
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Tangle, you didn't mention this in your post, but if you're shooting those heavy loads from the bench, nearly all the recoil is directed at your shoulder and back, from the waist up. That's a sure recipe for aching body parts! Shooting from a standing position allows your legs and the full mass of your body to be engaged in resisting the recoil.
    I appreciate that - makes sense. I've been shooting from a standing position.

    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    ...Also, a tip from a guy who spent too long dealing with crippling back pain (but better now) - stay ahead of the pain. Give your body a chance to recover, then work back into the bow and heavy loads gradually. Pain is a reaction to inflammation and creates its own set of adverse body reactions, so using Advil or your NSAI of choice in anticipation of painful activities is also a good idea.
    Hmmm, you must be assuming I'm a patient guy

    My wife says I'm a type A personality - I tell her that's not so - I'm an A+ type

    But yep, all good advice.

    I think I was looking for some assurance that my shotgun shooting days aren't nearing an end. And, I am getting that assurance, it's the words like slow, moderation, recovery, etc. that are the problems

    Oh, I used to have chronic lower back problems myself. It stopped when I started climbing trees for fun. Well actually to rappel, then the fun became the climbing instead of the rappelling. Actually the rappelling is still fun too:

    Oh, skip to the 2:51 mark, that's where the fun begins - I was so conscious of trying to keep my helmet cam focused on the rappelling device, that I nearly stuck up in the ground. I did have some mild whiplash from this.

    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,208
    Pushups, shoulder work, military/bench press, lots of stretching, wearing a pad during shotgunning and, as others have suggested, things in moderation. Aren't a lot of other choices, really.

    For me, too, there's a pretty good position near "the pocket" on the upper edge of the pecs that suits me best, allowing for withstanding the punch easily but also allowing for my shoulder to give somewhat during recoil. Too stout of a load, too many loads, or getting the positioning wrong, and I can ache for a few days. I'm sure in my younger, svelte days, it would have been less of an issue. After all ... 67 ain't nothin' to sneeze at.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    kansas
    Posts
    1,802
    Your Benelli is a recoil operated right? Gas operated auto's like Remington 1100's & 1187's always seem to have more of a shove than a jolt.
    Might give one of those a try.

    I never feel a lot of recoil with my O/U's or S/S's but thats because I'm shooting clays & swinging as I shoot. The same loads shot static, that is not moving really really hurt!

    Moderation I thnk, may be your cure.

    Your 67 & climbing trees & shooting magnum shotgun slugs are your hobbies....well you sound pretty healthy to me!

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    KCMO
    Posts
    3,106
    Sucks when the ground sneaks up on you like that. Imagine the looks at the ER when you tell them you hurt yourself rappelling out of trees - talk about lecture time.

    Anyway, keep it up doing all you are doing - no sense in sitting still. Give your shoulder/back a rest and you should be fine.

  14. #13
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by grouse View Post
    Your Benelli is a recoil operated right? Gas operated auto's like Remington 1100's & 1187's always seem to have more of a shove than a jolt.
    Might give one of those a try.
    My Benelli M2 is 'recoil' operated, i.e. inertial, and it is LIGHT! And I have shot the same loads in it, but this last time was my Benelli M4 - it's gas operated and probably about the heaviest shotgun on the market. It's handful to carry for a long outing, but the weight absorbs the recoil better. Although, I don't feel any more recoil from the light M2 than I do from the heavier M4.

    The first time I shot the Winchester 3" 1 oz slug @ 1760 fps, I thought, "Huh, that's not that bad."

    Quote Originally Posted by grouse View Post
    ....Moderation I think, may be your cure.
    Now see - you were doing great right up to there! I'm too old to be moderate - if I'm moderate, I'll be dead before I get done doing the things I want to do I guess you can see why us old guys are so crotchety - we ain't got that much time left, and we don't like wastin' time waitin'!

    Unfortunately, I suspect you're right though

    Quote Originally Posted by grouse View Post
    ...You're 67 & climbing trees & shooting magnum shotgun slugs are your hobbies....well you sound pretty healthy to me!
    Well, I have to do something! Bingo and crocheting seem a little slow to me.

    I have become more active in team sports though! Yesterday I watched two basketball games!
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  15. #14
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Sucks when the ground sneaks up on you like that.
    That is does.

    I've quit watching gear and keep my eyes on the rapidly approaching ground now!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...Imagine the looks at the ER when you tell them you hurt yourself rappelling out of trees - talk about lecture time.
    Hmmm, that would be humorous, well, except for the pain involved

    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    ...Anyway, keep it up doing all you are doing - no sense in sitting still. Give your shoulder/back a rest and you should be fine.
    There's that rest word again! I haven't shot since yesterday morning - how long does it take!!!

    Hey thanks everybody - I am encouraged; I guess I've over done it a bit. It's just a bit intimidating to be older - I've never been older before I don't like it!

    I guess I'll take a complete break from shotgunning and/or shoot lighter loads. Also, I'll make some mounting adjustments, and see how that works. I guess it would be prudent to shoot the heavier loads in my M4 since it's a heavier shotgun and will absorb a bit more recoil.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,208
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The first time I shot the Winchester 3" 1 oz slug @ 1760 fps, I thought, "Huh, that's not that bad."
    Well, it was. But on the 50th round in a row, it was something else.

    My guess: the answer lies somewhere in between.


    Knit one, pearl two. Knit one, ...
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

1 oz 1760 fps force

,

1760 fps recoil

,

what are shotgun am

Click on a term to search for related topics.