Armalite AR-10 - mean looking gun - it just won't shoot...

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    Armalite AR-10 - mean looking gun - it just won't shoot...

    I must be going through a stage of acquiring guns with something wrong with them First two M&Ps, a S&W 1911, a M&P 15 and then a while back, I traded for this (without the scope; I added that):



    It's an Armalite AR-10T in, of course, .308. It has a floating barrel and it's got a really nice trigger. However, and you kinda know that's coming don't you, the only ammo that I can get better than a 2-3 inch group at 50 yards, that's right 50 yards, is Federal Premium 165 gn Sierra BTHP.

    I know some guns are sensitive to ammo and loads etc, but from about a 1" group to a 2-3" group at 50 yards, something's wrong.

    I'll call Armalite today and see what they say.
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    You and Rollo should team up to write gun reviews.
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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I would expect it to average 2 to 4 MOA depending on ammo at 100 yards.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I would expect it to average 2 to 4 MOA depending on ammo at 100 yards.
    Is that because it's an Armalite, or is that typical of all ARs in .308? Thanks!
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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Typical of an AR10. If you throw a precision optic on it, use match ammo and fire from a machine rest, you might get a little better, but I really wouldn't expect anything more than 2 to 4 MOA 10 shot groups.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Is that the stainless barrel?? If so, using something like Winchester SilverTip 168gr, should give you about 1.5 MOA accuracy though I think Armalite claims 1 MOA is possible. For 10 shot groups, which are a much better indicator of accuracy in my opinion, 1.5 MOA is more realistic.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    I'm sorry to hear that Jon! Who asked you anyway? But thanks, I do appreciate the insight. I would be happy with 1-1.5 MOA, but I would really have to carefully pick the ammo to get anywhere near that in this gun.

    I am seeing the kind of groups you're describing, i.e good groups with one specific load (I listed the specific load in the OP, FWIW). I have seen a about a 1 MOA group by both me and a guy at the range that shot it with the Federal ammo I mentioned.

    After talking to my bench rest buddy that shoots and wins national bench rest competitions out to 1000 yards, it looks like 10 rounds is more of a test of the shooter, the optics, and the rifle rather than just the rifle itself.

    There's an interesting statistic I discovered as I was applying statistical analysis to shooting groups. After the first two shots, it is impossible to shoot a tighter group than those first two shots - no matter how many rounds you shoot at the group. You can make the group look better with subsequent shots perhaps, but when you measure the group, it can never be smaller than the first two shots. From a statistical analysis point of view, the more you shoot in one group, the greater the probability the group will grow larger up to a point..

    The reason is, as I said above, you can't shoot a smaller group than the first two shots, but there is a good probability that you will shoot a larger group with subsequent shots, hence the group cannot shrink but it can grow.

    When one shoots 10 shots, at some point, we are testing the shooter's ability to get exactly the same sight picture, and pull the trigger exactly the same and not disturb the sight picture. Most precision shooters I know about shoot 5 shot groups max.

    What I want to know is not what I can shoot with the rifle, but what the rifle can shoot. I generally shoot about five, 5 shot groups over a stretched time period to keep my focus as sharp as I can keep it.
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    It appears that now the general trend among the "Pro" shooters is the three (3) rd group. to test the rifle not the shooter. Let the barrel cool then repeat.

    My AR-10 National Match would deliver sub 1 inch groups off a bench rest at 100 yards with handloads or Federal Gold Match ammo. I would shoot 3 rd groups and was using a Burris Elite 3200 Tactical 10X scope. It was a bear to carry, with the heavy stainless NM barrel, scope, JP muzzle break, it was pushing 14 lbs. No recoil
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    Armalite AR-10 - mean looking gun - it just won't shoot...

    Ron, if you want to see cute little groups on paper, shoot 3 or 5 round groups. If you want to see what you and your rifle are capable of doing, you need to shoot ten.

    I couldn't care less what my fighting or hunting rifles are capable of doing at their very best, I care what I am capable of doing with that rifle cold and on demand, consistently.

    That's why 10 shots groups are far more realistic. Unless I'm mistaken and you bought his rifle to shoot from the bench so you can measure group size?? ;)

    If I had a rifle like Beans described, I may enjoy shooting 3 round groups as that is a hobby all by itself. But that's not what I do with rifles.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Ron, if you want to see cute little groups on paper, shoot 3 or 5 round groups. If you want to see what you and your rifle are capable of doing, you need to shoot ten.
    It depends on what the intended use of the rifle is. When would I ever need to shoot ten shots in real life? I can find out what me AND the rifle can do after I see what the rifle can do. What I want to establish is the accuracy of the rifle, not me and the rifle. Once I've confirmed the accuracy of the rifle, then I can see what me and the rifle can do.

    For most of us, I'm not sure 10 shot groups really apply. Those of us that hunt will be lucky to get one shot off at 100 yards. If we don't hunt, then we probably have nothing else to do but punch paper.
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    My understand is that, that throat dimensions vary considerably on the 10-T. I guess that I was lucky enough to get one with a shorter throat. Mine likes Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr (Sierra). It will do 5 shots at .9" at 100 yards with Federal ammo. It does a little bit better with reloads. Same bullet but seated about .002 off the lands. Most groups will be under 2" at 200 yards, those over 2" are flyers, my fault. Other match grade ammo produces 2" at 100 yards and embarrassing at 200 yards.

    I know that it can be aggravating, but it is trial and error on the ammo. It also seems, in my case anyway, that front rest placement is critical. Mine shoots as well using a bipod as it does from a bag type rest, as long as the bipod can slide back during recoil.

    My experience is that most rifles are capable of shooting far better than I am. Ask some of the Benchrest or AR accuracy guys. Sometime what seems to be very insignificant can be very critical, when shooting for accuracy. Most rifle guys are always glad to help.

    Once again, it is trial and error. That is the fun of it, you get to shoot more...
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldskeetshooter View Post
    My understand is that, that throat dimensions vary considerably on the 10-T. I guess that I was lucky enough to get one with a shorter throat. Mine likes Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr (Sierra). It will do 5 shots at .9" at 100 yards with Federal ammo. It does a little bit better with reloads. Same bullet but seated about .002 off the lands. Most groups will be under 2" at 200 yards, those over 2" are flyers, my fault. Other match grade ammo produces 2" at 100 yards and embarrassing at 200 yards.

    I know that it can be aggravating, but it is trial and error on the ammo. It also seems, in my case anyway, that front rest placement is critical. Mine shoots as well using a bipod as it does from a bag type rest, as long as the bipod can slide back during recoil.

    My experience is that most rifles are capable of shooting far better than I am. Ask some of the Benchrest or AR accuracy guys. Sometime what seems to be very insignificant can be very critical, when shooting for accuracy. Most rifle guys are always glad to help.

    Once again, it is trial and error. That is the fun of it, you get to shoot more...
    Well, I think disappointing is the operative word. I understand some guns like specific ammo/loads etc. I was just not aware that they are so sensitive that the difference can go from less than one inch groups at 50 yards to 2" and 3" groups at 50 yards.

    That kinda takes away the selection of hunting ammo one can use. Sounds like one must use match ammo to get 1" groups at 100 yards.

    My Remington 700 SPS Tactical likes some ammo better than others, but it's small differences in group size - significant, but small.
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    Ron, I'll never understand you. You want information, but when it's given to you, you fight it tooth and nail.

    Is this a bench rest rifle or a hunting rifle? If it's a hunting rifle, a ten round group will give you a very good idea of your accuracy capability out in the field.

    I have a 14.5" Colt. I can fire three rounds, get a sub 1.25" group and call it a 1 1/4 MOA rifle if I'm on that day. Then I can go out hunting or take my rifle to work, then be faced with a 100 yard shot. Can I get my first round to hit in that one inch area when I'm cold and maybe using a door frame as makeshift support? Not likely. It's possible, but not likely.

    Now, I can take that Colt to the range and fire a 2.5" ten shot group. I can do this every single time from all kinds of positions including kneeling with barricade support, prone, force support on a door frame, etc.

    Now, I'm out hunting or at work and need to take a 100 yard shot. Should I be confident that I can place my first round within a 2.5" area from whatever semi-supported position I'm in when both my rifle and I are cold? Yep. I sure can. This also makes me a more confident shooter.

    Squeezing every bit of a tiny group out of my rifle shooting 3 or 5 round groups may be fun, but it is not an indicator of what I can deliver in the field with that same rifle and ammo combination at any given moment, on demand.

    I can go around telling everyone I see that my 14.5" Colt is a 1.25 MOA rifle, and while that may not be a lie, it's not necessarily realistic of what I can do with that rifle consistently when away from the range.

    3 might be great for bench rest. 5 is good for zeroing. 10 is what many of us believe to be the standard to show what we are capable of doing with our rifle at any time when cold, consistently.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    What kind of scope is that?
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    For the record, here's what I can do on demand at any given time with a Colt 6921 with a non free float handguard, using a T1. Support is the magazine and elbows.

    Top left is 55gr SilverTip - 10 shot group
    Bottom left is 75gr TAP - 10 shot group
    Middle and bottom right are 55gr FMJ - had 15 rounds left so I split it between the two targets.

    I can put an S&B 5-25 and use hand loaded and tuned match ammo and squeeze a sub MOA 3 shot group out of this rifle, but that's not realistic.

    Unless you've given up hunting and decided to now become a bench shooter since the last time we spoke, my gut tells me ten shot groups will tell you what you need to know about your capabilities with that particular rifle.

    But.... What do I know!

    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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