A decision. ..

This is a discussion on A decision. .. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; As most of u know, I have been researching rifles for HD/SD, range, and a possible hunting trip. I had chosen an AR over an ...

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    Member Array hwarang54's Avatar
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    A decision. ..

    As most of u know, I have been researching rifles for HD/SD, range, and a possible hunting trip. I had chosen an AR over an AK. I mean, they are an all American gun, are accurate and just soooo pretty. Than I saw an AK74. I did not know about these so I did some digging. Overall, the AK seems a bit more what I need, as opposed to what I want. It is a reliable platform that doesn't need to cost in maintaining and the ammo cost and has decent accuracy and don't kick as hard as I remember( I got to shoot a buddy's AKM, 74 and Krinkov pistol. Also, I don't foresee myself needing a round that can do 1 MOA at 400 yards. Now I'm trying to decide between an AKM and an AK74. Having read of issues to look for (proper riveting, canted sights, magazine wobble, straight barrels, etc) I think I uave narrowed it down. Specifically, a Zastava O-PAP M70, a Centurion 39 and a Waffen Werks AK74. Does anyone here have any specific experience with any of thse they can enlighten me with? Eventually, it will have an optic, an adjustable stock and a rail. Also, do parts (not caliber related) interchangeable between the AKM and AK74 platforms?

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    Senior Member Array patri0t's Avatar
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    I have never met anyone who has ever been happy with their AK as their primary long gun, even though some had really tried to make it work.
    They are not inherently accurate, which pretty much kills their usefulness to start with. This can be compensated for, with full auto and a lot of ammo.
    Also, they are not terribly pretty... making them even harder to love. Lights, lasers, tripods, don't even seem to suit them.

    I'd have to say proceed with caution concerning one of these (maybe it would work for you).
    My thought would be to make an AR work for most any situation you can think of. The AR platform still has it all in its .308 version.
    I have fired many different AKs and I could never make it work for me.

    If it really is what you want, it is a decent shooter so go for it if you are certain.
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    Member Array hwarang54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patri0t View Post
    I have never met anyone who has ever been happy with their AK as their primary long gun, even though some had really tried to make it work.
    They are not inherently accurate, which pretty much kills their usefulness to start with. This can be compensated for, with full auto and a lot of ammo.
    Also, they are not terribly pretty... making them even harder to love. Lights, lasers, tripods, don't even seem to suit them.

    I'd have to say proceed with caution concerning one of these (maybe it would work for you).
    My thought would be to make an AR work for most any situation you can think of. The AR platform still has it all in its .308 version.
    I have fired many different AKs and I could never make it work for me.

    If it really is what you want, it is a decent shooter so go for it if you are certain.
    As strange as it sounds, I am exactly the opposite. I have never met anyone who doesn't love their AK. I haven't met many who bought an AR, either before or after their AK, and sold said AR fairly soon after and have never looked back. Most of these people, who bought an AK74, said the ammo is cheaper than an AR, shoots softer than an AR, are easier to maintain than an AR, but are just not as accurate as an AR.

    On another note, this will he my first "high cap" semi auto rifle (outside my garand) and it just seems their reliablility, ease of use/maintenance, ammo cost and availability, overall cost and ease of replacements/parts, it just seems like the right choice. Then again, I am a newbie in this game.

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    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    It's all a compromise. Your best choice depends on how you will use the rifle and in what environment. If you want to hunt with it you must ask, "What game animal and at what distance. Hunting Mule deer in the West can require a much greater effective range than #W@hitetails in the close cover of the East. You also need to consider what proportion of the time you will be using it for each activity. 80% Home Defense/20% hunting? The opposite? Do you plan on getting involved with any practical rifle sports? All of these require decisions on what cartridge to use.

    For Self and Home defense there are other, different questions: Do you live in an apartment or do you have acres of property? Are you likely to be dealing with 4-legged predators or only the 2-legged variety?

    Define your needs as well as you can and then realize that your needs can change over time so that what was the right choice now may not be the right choice later on.

    [Incidentally, accuracy is usually measured at 100 yards. 1 MOA @ 100 yards would give a group size of just over 4 inches at 400 yards, therefore 1 MOA at 400 yards would be considered 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Just FYI.]

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    Member Array hwarang54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    It's all a compromise. Your best choice depends on how you will use the rifle and in what environment. If you want to hunt with it you must ask, "What game animal and at what distance. Hunting Mule deer in the West can require a much greater effective range than #W@hitetails in the close cover of the East. You also need to consider what proportion of the time you will be using it for each activity. 80% Home Defense/20% hunting? The opposite? Do you plan on getting involved with any practical rifle sports? All of these require decisions on what cartridge to use.

    For Self and Home defense there are other, different questions: Do you live in an apartment or do you have acres of property? Are you likely to be dealing with 4-legged predators or only the 2-legged variety?

    Define your needs as well as you can and then realize that your needs can change over time so that what was the right choice now may not be the right choice later on.

    [Incidentally, accuracy is usually measured at 100 yards. 1 MOA @ 100 yards would give a group size of just over 4 inches at 400 yards, therefore 1 MOA at 400 yards would be considered 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Just FYI.]
    I live in a fairly standard suburban neighborhood. I do live in the east where whitetails and hogs are the norm. I don't get to go out hunting a lot, so probably more like 10 percent. I also live in a fairly rural area, and sightings are not uncommon. The area I live in isn't....... very well to do, so I edc a p229. Someday, I might have the land to really need to reach out and touch something or someone.

    I told you I was a newbie in this. :)

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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    I think, living in the continental US, the AR is probably a better option when it comes to long term parts and ammo availability. Elsewhere, it may be a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post

    [Incidentally, accuracy is usually measured at 100 yards. 1 MOA @ 100 yards would give a group size of just over 4 inches at 400 yards, therefore 1 MOA at 400 yards would be considered 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Just FYI.]
    I think 1 MOA is 1 MOA, regardless of range. Isn't it minute of angle, ie 1/60th of a degree?
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Ok then hold on to your set OP I will guide through the world AK . I do like them alot you see...

    Lets look at what you want :
    1.The opap good well made gun that has a bolt hold open facotry fitted when used with yuoko mags .However you have limited optiosn on add on ie stock as the rear of the gun is not normal AK Gun Review: Century Arms Zastava N-PAP AK-47 | The Truth About Guns so I would not get this to start with .
    2. Next you have the Waffen this is a good gun . Basic but you can add most anything you want to it and ammo is cheep and nasty ( they call it the poison round) . However most ammo is corrisve or not range safe so there is that . Also the mags are harder to find and not as cheep as ak mags. But the gun is very low recoil and it is more accuarte a bit then a normal ak .
    3. The century 39 well it has a milled reciver so better made . Downside is more ak stock are made for stamped receiver so modification are necessary in some case .The reviews seem ok . It is made 100% in the USA so there is that too but I have not handled them so I have not idea if the parts are all ak common ..

    Of thouse three choice I would pick the waffen works and a crap ton of ammo . Only because I know that it will fit most any other part ok . I am not sure on the pap or 39 what aftermarket stuff will work. If you wanted a normal stock gun get the pap..

    Watch the video above and as long as the bolt is smoth the sights line up and the gas block is ok you should be good . They are simply fun gun..

    If it helps you :
    1. If you get the 39 or other milled guns look here The Largest AK-47/74 Rifle... they make the arsenal guns which are milled so some parts should work..
    2. Also look at midway etc for stocks I got a side folding ak 74 stock there . If you get a ak74 get a true chrome lined muzzle brake see APAX parts.

    I know Classic Firearms - Military Surplus Guns and Rifles, Saiga Firearms, Classic Guns, Surplus Ammo, and more! has sold the 74 waffen for 500 and less at times
    Welcome - Atlantic Firearms | AR15 & AK47 Rifles has sales alot

    and my local company has a lot ak stuff cheep tooJ&G Sales

    This is the rail I have used and they make different mount for different scopes Midwest Industries:


    Also ACE makes great stocks for aks


    If you are worry about ammo though stick to 7.62x39 a lot of USA made guns use it and a lot of US ammo makers use it

    Good luck
    If you got any question ask .

    Oh and OP have you consider a sig55R? This is a sig ar that taks ak mags ?? The gen 2 ones are good they just dont take drum mags 556R-hero-detail.jpg


    Also the saiga guns are very nice if converted right . And of course any ak imported pre 89...

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    Distinguished Member Array sealteam20001's Avatar
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    I"m still a AR15 M16 Fan, But the AK47 has killed more people in the world than any other Rifle made!

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sealteam20001 View Post
    I"m still a AR15 M16 Fan, But the AK47 has killed more people in the world than any other Rifle made!
    Plus that metal but plate stock hurts a lot more then some plastic ar-stock ...

    Course if you want to cause some damage get a swiss bayo mount on a 556..

    566.jpg

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    Member Array hwarang54's Avatar
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    I've read really bad reviews about the Sig556.... And at the price Sig want to charge for one, it's not worth that leap of faith for me. If anything, I would get their m400....

    But even then, to get an AK set up the way I want, it would cost less than the AR I want. I love the look of a nice AR, just like I do the look of a 1911, just seems a pretty out of my price range, for now.

    Don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I will be getting both and AK and an AR at some point, this is a matter of which to get first.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    It's all a compromise. Your best choice depends on how you will use the rifle and in what environment. If you want to hunt with it you must ask, "What game animal and at what distance. Hunting Mule deer in the West can require a much greater effective range than #W@hitetails in the close cover of the East...

    Define your needs as well as you can and then realize that your needs can change over time so that what was the right choice now may not be the right choice later on...
    Good points here. If you're planning to hunt with the rifle, an AR is going to be a better choice, at least within the limitations of the 5.56 round. If you feel a need to hunt larger game at longer distances, or if a 5.56 is not legal for hunting in your area, then the .308 is the next logical step, IMHO. An AR-10 will give you most of the advantages of the AR, but with a higher-powered platform. Personally, I chose the FNAR as the perfect hunting/HD/SHTF hybrid rifle. It's dead-nuts accurate, powerful enough to take any game in North America, uses readily-available 7.62x51/.308 ammo, and doubles as a fun - albeit expensive - plinker.

    The AK was designed as a cheap, reliable combat weapon. Accuracy was not a major consideration, given that the typical usage was spray-and-pray on full auto. The AR started out the same way, sort of, but with less emphasis on "cheap", and it's undergone almost continuous improvement ever since. In the last five years or so, in particular, AR's have really become popular as hunting rifles, so there's more emphasis on accuracy than ever.

    AK's have probably gone in the other direction; cheaper production techniques so they could make & sell more of them to third-world terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    [Incidentally, accuracy is usually measured at 100 yards. 1 MOA @ 100 yards would give a group size of just over 4 inches at 400 yards, therefore 1 MOA at 400 yards would be considered 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Just FYI.]
    You're mistaken here. As Maxwell97 has pointed out, an MOA is an MOA. At 100 yards, it equates to approximately an inch. At 400 yards, it's approximately 4". The MOA does not change with distance - the group size does.
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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwarang54 View Post
    I've read really bad reviews about the Sig556.... And at the price Sig want to charge for one, it's not worth that leap of faith for me. If anything, I would get their m400....
    But even then, to get an AK set up the way I want, it would cost less than the AR I want. I love the look of a nice AR, just like I do the look of a 1911, just seems a pretty out of my price range, for now.

    Don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I will be getting both and AK and an AR at some point, this is a matter of which to get first.[/QUOT

    Problem is that almsot ever review you are seeing for the 556r is for the gen 1 gun . They were crap . Gen 2 are not crap but there are few reviews out there that mention this.Sig 556R--Taking another look.


    I always say a good starter ak is a wsar 10/63 they are study and as long as you check them out you are good. They are a blank canvas that you can add anything you want to .. The other guns you mentioned save the waffen may need work or not work with all the stuff out there imop..

    I always like to have a beater/toy with ak ( so a 10/63 some other CAI stuff) and then down the road save up and get a great ak so a pre 1989 import maybe a early arsenal..

    With a 10/63 you should get everything you want in a ak . Chrom barrel etc. I know my freind wsar right now sports a Midwest rail , a manticore nigbrake , and ace folding stock set up.


    Also if you want nice entry ak the SAR guns are nice . They do need to be de banned though ie bayo lug and muzzle threading added. Also if you can find a mak 90 they are very good aks too . But you do need to add USA parts to them if you want a folding stock. If I were to get a nice beater add to ak I would get a wsar or a mak just becuase they are still cheap and you can add all the stuff you want and it will fit or you can force it to fit...


    You can also get a waffen for under 600 bucks too now if you wanted that AK-74 Semi-Auto Rifle W / Chrome Lined Barrel by Waffen Werks. With Original Un-Refinished Grade B Wood Stocks, Rifle Only hitcock 45 has a good review of one they are light and cheep to shoot .
    Last edited by OD*; November 15th, 2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Repair quote

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    OK guys, you are all quite correct on the MOA thing. I was referring to the OP's statement that he didn't need a rifle "that can do 1 MOA at 400 yards". I guess I put it poorly. I was trying to say that accuracy is usually referenced in MOA at 100 yards. Because of the way he worded it, I assumed he meant 1" at 400 yards; my mistake.

    I guess it's true what they say about assumptions!

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    Member Array hwarang54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    OK guys, you are all quite correct on the MOA thing. I was referring to the OP's statement that he didn't need a rifle "that can do 1 MOA at 400 yards". I guess I put it poorly. I was trying to say that accuracy is usually referenced in MOA at 100 yards. Because of the way he worded it, I assumed he meant 1" at 400 yards; my mistake.

    I guess it's true what they say about assumptions!
    I was saying 1" at 400, and was quickly schooled. I can appreciate that. Anyway, I don't need that kind of accuracy in the foreseeable future. I'm wondering if I can compete with an AK. Are there any AK competitions in Florida?

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    Member Array TDH1961's Avatar
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    If an ak platform was what I wanted US PALM.

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