Wife's Long Arm; P90?

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    Senior Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Wife's Long Arm; P90?

    Hello Brothers.
    So i want to kick a little pig today.
    My wife is finally proficient enough with handguns and long guns it's time to settle on what will become her primary longarm.
    She is short; 5'4". A little curvy though; around 160 lbs.
    She already has a Ruger 22/45 and Ruger 10/22 for plinking/training.
    She already has a youth 20ga. 870. She already has a Kahr 9mm.

    So what do i get her for a long gun?
    Caveat; i hate AR's. and you can't convince me otherwise, don't hijack my thread please. They have a ton going for them, but as a welder/machinist i have an inherent problem with a gun so unreliable in field conditions; everyone knows a dirty AR won't run. This is an insurmountable problem to me. Even with a piston, dust cover, and condom on the barrel, one piece of sand and your toast. Unnaccaptable.
    So given i will not be buying her any AR variant.

    Mini-14? HK products? old school M-1 Carbine?

    I keep coming back to a p90.
    Sure; everyone dogs the 5.7's killing/stopping power.
    Everyone dogs not being able to get the AP round for Civ's in US....and with JHP or Plastic Tipped or FMJ or whatever; it's basically "a glorified .22 mag"

    Ok, so it ain't a .308. i get that.
    But remember, this is for a small woman who is fairly new to shooting. If she could handle an M1A i wouldn't be posting this...and if she ever actually has to engage with "hard targets" i doubt a having an M1A over the P90 would do her much good, she's no Navy SEAL.
    Even in that scenario a p90 that she can dump a lot of rounds out quickly will probably allow her to be able to "duck some heads" and then run away a lot easier than a 12 lbs. M1A (w/scope and full mag).

    I think having a weapon with minimal recoil, high round count, PDW size, and something that won't scare her with boom and flash pretty much defines her requirements. Of course i would like more power than 5.7, but then what? remember, no AR's.

    So stick with FN and get an S2000? go back to .223?
    Well, i think a .223 bullpup is going to be WAAAY to scary for her. Can you imagine discharging a .223 bullpup indoors without hearing protection?
    She better hit the guy with the first shot because her ears will probably start bleeding after that.
    I don't know personally, but can only assume the 5.7 has significantly reduced blast, both out of the muzzle and the ejection port( a big deal in bullpups).

    i personally love M1's, Mini's and anything like a Garand action. and i will recommend a mini all day to a woman. But in my wifes case she doesn't know weapon retention stuff very well and i like the idea of the majority of the weapon being "behind" her hands against her body where it's a lot harder to grab.

    most "conventional" weapons in this category are not bullpups. this makes for a lot more of the weapon being exposed if she turns a corner in a building.

    So back to the "weakness" of the 5.7.
    Well, i would rather her be able to score hits comfortably without flinching(any REAL shooters know about flinching, why don't i see much talk about flinching on the net...?) than be able to ponder how destructive her.308 is.
    For that matter, getting hit with a .223 with "varmint" rounds in soft clothing vs. a 5.7 with varmint rounds and soft clothing; i think both are going to "deter". i am not interested in her being able to kill. i am not interested in her being able to defeat armor. i want her to have a weapon she can go to in a SHTF situation and be able to score hits(the only thing that counts, right?) and have confidence that she can score those hits. i love the 50 rnd. mag. she won't be taking shots past 200 yards anyway. i've seen her paste a target with her 10/22. I think she can take that and transfer it right onto a P90 without any real change in training other than weapon operation. She can plug 5 rounds into a grapefruit sized target at 50 yards in about 3 seconds. I don't care if it is a "puny" 5.7. other than a heavily armored "operator" 5- 5.7 rounds are definately going to "deter". If it is a hardened operator hopefully 5 rounds on target ducks some heads and she can run away when she sees they are scary "men in black".

    So; talk me out of it.
    Tell me how dumb i am and why i should pick this or that.
    Tell me why a P90 is garbage.
    Tell me what cartridge outperforms a 5.7 in everyway for this application.
    Find me that perfect gun that combines everything good about a P90 with the simplicity of a bolt rifle and the power of a .338 LM.
    And that perfect gun that won't make my wife flinch and she will love to shoot.
    Make me proud.

    America The Beautiful.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array tdave's Avatar
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    I think you already made up your mind. Go with it.
    TopGun47 likes this.

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    I really hope your wife doesn't see that you called her "Husky"........

    I would edit it to pleasantly curvy...

    It sounds like you made up your mind, but I would ask you to consider the cost of ammo. The cheaper the ammo the more you will practice.

    I like the M1 Carbine...
    blitzburgh, msgt/ret and Aceoky like this.
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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Oh OP you know in CO you can only have 15 round mags right ?? So the ps-90 is out as there is no mag unless you want the 10 round mags ( not sure if they even make them..) and 10 rounds in a ps-90 makes it suck. Or did you own 50 round mags pre ban . That for me is key... I would not buy a 10 round ps-90 .. Also I owned a ps-90 (with 50 round mag) and sold it first trip to the range I could not used it all nor could the range master ( and this was a tactical selling range not some fud shop) . The mags for me are a massive pain to load and I just could not get a good sight angle with the scope .That all said it is a no recoil gun and if you can handle it then all the better I just could not see a thing or hit a thing with it. If you want 5.7 then get it . And if you do make sure to get the red box 5.7 ammo ( it is leo only but it is not AP so you can buy it just something FN does) .


    OP what pre ban mags do you have ? I ask cause a pistole carbine would be great as most pistole mags ( 92/226/glock) are made in 15 round version . Just saying
    Have you though about a 9mm or 45 rifle ? Low recoile and 9mm out of a 16inch barrel is close to a 357 mag in terms of speed. The sub 9 or sub 2000 are ok gun esp if you dress them up and add buffer tubes. Personal I like the camp 9 or pc9 rifles esp if you put a folding stock on the camp 9.

    Also they are making a m-1 carbine now that takes 92fs mags so they is that .

    Heck if all else fails get a gun and a silencer . One of the big plus of cans is that they dampned not only the noise but recoil as well


    Also there are piston AR that run a little cleaner then the AR too. The sig ones are nice ie the 556 /551 etc but withouth a can or ear plug I rather not fired them indoors.

    I would let her try before buying . I can only count the number of FS adds that was some well meaning husban buying a gun for the wife and her hating it . Course you do get a free gun..


    I guess the thing you should think about is A. you are in CO and by law you can only have 15 rounds unless pre ban and B. cost of ammo ... M-1 carbin ammo is costly and also a lot of mag are only made in 10 or full size conf .. Only CO and NJ have 15 round bans so not many makers make anything other then ar mags that are 15 .If you do find them they tend to be home made for the NJ market..

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    Senior Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Yes. Colorado got Californicated. Pretty much planing on moving to Wyo ASAP. Will only add 15 minutes to my work commute. So the mag/ban thing is only a speed bump.

    I am interested in what you said about sight picture on it. i've never shot a PS90 and probably won't get a chance to until we buy one, that's why i posted this. Can you expand on that a little? how big of a guy are you? Was is it cheek weld? was it scope height? eye relief? or is the gun just not ergonomic?

    looking into Marlin's camp guns and Kel-tec sub guns now... Thank you. Though for all that i think i would have her get a M1 carbine, and the 9mm carbine is neat, certainly cheaper to shoot easier to source ammo, but i think she can handle the full .30 carbine round and get a little more puch out of it. i'll eat the cost of training ammo.

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    Yes. Colorado got Californicated. Pretty much planing on moving to Wyo ASAP. Will only add 15 minutes to my work commute. So the mag/ban thing is only a speed bump.

    I am interested in what you said about sight picture on it. i've never shot a PS90 and probably won't get a chance to until we buy one, that's why i posted this. Can you expand on that a little? how big of a guy are you? Was is it cheek weld? was it scope height? eye relief? or is the gun just not ergonomic?

    looking into Marlin's camp guns and Kel-tec sub guns now... Thank you. Though for all that i think i would have her get a M1 carbine, and the 9mm carbine is neat, certainly cheaper to shoot easier to source ammo, but i think she can handle the full .30 carbine round and get a little more puch out of it. i'll eat the cost of training ammo.

    I am a big guy like 6 ft oh so with change . But I think my arms are bitter shorter then other people my height imop. I just could not get commffy with both the cheek weld and sight pic . I pro spent like 15 min trying to fig out how to shoulder the thing so I could see the sight pic and it needed me to jerk my head way back on the gun and stand at a weird angle maybe with just iron sigts it would not have been so bad but the gun just felt off to me . Plus the whole 16inch barrel killes it for me unlike other bullpup the barrel sticks out a way. I think this is a gun that some people learn how to handle and love and others dont.


    Oh hey you look at the storm rifle yet? mags are cheep and it is nice gun. My only issue is that you can not thread the barrel or really mod it due to 922r import issues . But this with 30 round mags could be a nice little how do you do

    The nice thing about the kel tec guns for me was that if you own the handgun with it you can run the same mags. For example a freind of mine has a camp 9 a sub 2000 and a 5906 and is looking to get a 6906 and all use the same mags .

    Also look at this company MechTech - Glock turns your glock or 1911 into a rifle non nfa.. They are also nfa sbr mounts for the glocks and other guns if you want to go that route . But you would need to do a trust so your wife could legally used them

    I know for a fact that if needed you can swap out the mag types on the sub 2000 . If you ever find a sub 9 they are nice they are the first version of the sub 2000 but are rarer with more metal and have bolt hold open ..

    If you get a sub gun look here Tacticool Products and get the buffer tube and the other stuff they are cheep and help a lot . Again it is a gun that some like and some dont I have messed with a number and they are nice light weight guns good survial guns I am paling on running mine with a silencer as a fun SHTF options. Like this but withouth the optics IMG_3343.JPG


    Bullpups guns I like I have alwasy wanted a AUG but boy that trigger is weird. The travor is a nice gun but But heavy I hear. I am planning on getting one but dont have the 1k plus they are running for now.

    I do have accese a 9mm ar colt but you said no AR so I wont mention that too much ..

    If you do want a 5.7 gun you will fine the ammo options a bit varried . They are a lot of rounds out there for this gun most rarer as a lot of them got called AP and are rarer ..This I hear is good ammo SS198LF-a-2.jpg and the vmax are nice too. I perosnal would only run the red box stuff it is as close as you can get to true 5.7 rounds from what I remember . But the stuff is hard to find and costly as I said FN wont sell to civialens so you have to look a bit

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    Caveat; i hate AR's. and you can't convince me otherwise, don't hijack my thread please. They have a ton going for them, but as a welder/machinist i have an inherent problem with a gun so unreliable in field conditions; everyone knows a dirty AR won't run. This is an insurmountable problem to me. Even with a piston, dust cover, and condom on the barrel, one piece of sand and your toast. Unnaccaptable.
    So given i will not be buying her any AR variant.
    Too bad you've already made up your mind about the AR. I'm curious why you think they're such pieces of garbage when that theory has been proven otherwise by years and years of military use, including a LOT of time in the desert with plenty of sand. Your claims simply are without much support.

    Not only that, but unless your wife plans on rolling around in the dirt a whole lot and finding herself stranded somewhere dirty with no possibility of ever cleaning it again, it is not difficult to keep a rifle cleaned up. If this is mostly going to be used in a capacity of home defense, there is absolutely no reason why an AR won't work.


    So stick with FN and get an S2000? go back to .223?
    Well, i think a .223 bullpup is going to be WAAAY to scary for her. Can you imagine discharging a .223 bullpup indoors without hearing protection?
    She better hit the guy with the first shot because her ears will probably start bleeding after that.
    I don't know personally, but can only assume the 5.7 has significantly reduced blast, both out of the muzzle and the ejection port( a big deal in bull pups).
    Auditory Exclusion - look it up. When you have an adrenaline dump, your hearing will not be the same as it is if, say, you just forget to put your ears on at the gun range. A LOT of people who have been in self defense situations hardly remember hearing their shots going off, let alone bleeding from the ears after one shot.

    And I have experienced a .223 discharging inside my house. It's really not as bad as you might think. And like I said, with an adrenaline dump, it'll be even less of an issue.


    I personally love M1's, Mini's and anything like a Garand action. and i will recommend a mini all day to a woman. But in my wifes case she doesn't know weapon retention stuff very well and i like the idea of the majority of the weapon being "behind" her hands against her body where it's a lot harder to grab.

    most "conventional" weapons in this category are not bullpups. this makes for a lot more of the weapon being exposed if she turns a corner in a building.
    I've gotta ask, realistically, how much house-clearing do you expect your wife to be doing? I think a better idea would be to expand your option to more conventional designs and simply teach your wife weapons retention. I'd say it's better to train your wife than it is to limit your options of long guns that may be a better fit for your wife.


    Well, i would rather her be able to score hits comfortably without flinching(any REAL shooters know about flinching, why don't i see much talk about flinching on the net...?) than be able to ponder how destructive her.308 is.
    Because REAL shooters also know that flinching, regardless of caliber, can easily be trained out of somebody. REAL shooters know that flinching is what you do in the beginning, and that proper training and practice will eliminate flinching. Don't be so worried about your wife flinching and limit her to a small caliber. Find what's good for her that she prefers to shoot and then spend time training her.


    For that matter, getting hit with a .223 with "varmint" rounds in soft clothing vs. a 5.7 with varmint rounds and soft clothing; i think both are going to "deter". i am not interested in her being able to kill. i am not interested in her being able to defeat armor. i want her to have a weapon she can go to in a SHTF situation and be able to score hits(the only thing that counts, right?) and have confidence that she can score those hits.
    A .223 and a 5.7 will do more than just "deter". They can both very easily kill. If you're not interested in her being able to kill, then buy her some pepper spray. Every firearm, for .17HMR on up can kill. What determines that is not caliber but shot placement. Saying that you're not interested in her being able to kill sounds to be like you don't plan on providing her with the necessary training and equipment to adequately defend herself - because every firearm will kill. That's something that both of you will have to understand if you plan on putting any gun in her hands.

    .223 and 5.7 will defeat soft body armor. That's not a bad thing, having a rifle that will. It might not be common, but it's not completely unheard of for BGs to wear soft body armor.

    The last sentence is the most applicable and the best thing you could say. You want her to have a weapon that she can use effectively and confidently. Let that be the foundation of your search, and remove some of your other qualifiers.


    I don't care if it is a "puny" 5.7. other than a heavily armored "operator" 5- 5.7 rounds are definately going to "deter". If it is a hardened operator hopefully 5 rounds on target ducks some heads and she can run away when she sees they are scary "men in black".
    Again, the 5.7 will do more than just deter. The 5.7 projectile is slightly larger than that of a .223, and both are plenty good at doing more than just "deterring".

    And if your wife is going to be encountering hardened operators, then she leads a much more interesting life than you have lead us to believe.



    All in all, the best thing you can do is let HER choose the rifle. Let her choose the caliber, and let her choose the platform. If she likes it, she'll train with it. Let her choose, and then you focus on teaching her how to shoot effectively and confidently, teach her weapon retention, and anything else she may need to know. Find her some professional training.

    But whatever you do, do not place limitations on your wife because you think she can or cannot do something. That's probably the worst thing you could do.
    BkCo1 and Aceoky like this.
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    Senior Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Interesting. i didn't know you could get extended hi-cap mags for a CX4. never gave em much thought.

    I have seen the pistol to carbine conversions in the past. i remember cheaper than dirt used to sell them. i guess i look at those like the only tihng you really gain over the pistol it's based on is aiming stability, which is important, just doesn't seem to gain a whole lot.

    BTW- i forgot to mention if i decide to invest in a class-III again,(i had a suppressor for my heavily modified mini-14. i hate AR's, remember) i will get her a Kriss Vector. holy business those are cool. i even already own a glock 21 with a bucket full of mags, though no 30 roundrs, but you can still find em, if not easily.

    Thank you for the great info about your experiences shooting a ps90. i think it sounds mostly like a training/habits/what your used to issue. since my wife has very littl experience with long guns anyway, she's gonna have to get used to something, so even if i think it feels like shouldering an apple peeling machine she will(hopefully) get used to it just like she will have to get used to anything else. i mean she does fine with our "regular" mini with it's wood stock, but still struggles with the modified folder on "my" mini.

    back to alternatives though, is anyone making any reall good "fighting" ammo for .30 carbine? or is it still only hardball? or will a .30 carbine even cycle hollow points. plastic tips, etc? just did a google search and the best i could find was a dpX? looks like a barnes X-bullet type solid copper hollow point? so i take it the feed ramp characteristics of a .30 carbine make it round nose only?

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    Member Array dhuffman's Avatar
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    I'm small - 4'9 and 90 lbs but in the Army I shot the M16 consistently scoring in the Expert category with it. It was the first ever gun of any type I shot and I really liked it. It was easy to shoot, easy to clean, and I never had any issues with the ones I was assigned. I'd happily buy one for the house but have several other guns on the list ahead of it.

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    Unless you are a Class III dealer you can't own a full auto Kriss, so do you mean a SBR?


    Speer Ammo - Personal Protection .30 Carbine Speer Gold Dot

    Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 30 Carbine :: 30 M1 CARBINE 110 GR FTX Critical Defense® 30 M1 CARBINE 110 GR FTX Critical Defense

    Plus SP hunting ammo
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Unless you are a Class III dealer you can't own a full auto Kriss, so do you mean a SBR?


    Speer Ammo - Personal Protection .30 Carbine Speer Gold Dot

    Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 30 Carbine :: 30 M1 CARBINE 110 GR FTX Critical Defense® 30 M1 CARBINE 110 GR FTX Critical Defense

    Plus SP hunting ammo
    He mentioned in that post that IF he invests again in getting his Class III license...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    Interesting. i didn't know you could get extended hi-cap mags for a CX4. never gave em much thought.

    I have seen the pistol to carbine conversions in the past. i remember cheaper than dirt used to sell them. i guess i look at those like the only tihng you really gain over the pistol it's based on is aiming stability, which is important, just doesn't seem to gain a whole lot.

    BTW- i forgot to mention if i decide to invest in a class-III again,(i had a suppressor for my heavily modified mini-14. i hate AR's, remember) i will get her a Kriss Vector. holy business those are cool. i even already own a glock 21 with a bucket full of mags, though no 30 roundrs, but you can still find em, if not easily.

    Thank you for the great info about your experiences shooting a ps90. i think it sounds mostly like a training/habits/what your used to issue. since my wife has very littl experience with long guns anyway, she's gonna have to get used to something, so even if i think it feels like shouldering an apple peeling machine she will(hopefully) get used to it just like she will have to get used to anything else. i mean she does fine with our "regular" mini with it's wood stock, but still struggles with the modified folder on "my" mini.

    back to alternatives though, is anyone making any reall good "fighting" ammo for .30 carbine? or is it still only hardball? or will a .30 carbine even cycle hollow points. plastic tips, etc? just did a google search and the best i could find was a dpX? looks like a barnes X-bullet type solid copper hollow point? so i take it the feed ramp characteristics of a .30 carbine make it round nose only?

    You can get 20 round mags for the cx4 but they make a cx4 that takes 92fs mags and you can convert the cx4 vesion to take them ( I have two sets of the parts to do it ) . And they do make 30 round factroy mags for the 92fs

    And for the 30cal ammo Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 30 Carbine :: 30 M1 CARBINE 110 GR FTX Critical Defense®

    But I would let her try out a few guns she may like AR or even AK .. If you want a good close quarter gun a under-folding AK-47 will do a lot of damage ...

    You do know that the vecor is not NFA right? You can own one in any state of the country ( even CA or NJ etc) they make normal non nfa vesion of them ... I have heard mix things about them but they do seem cool..

    If you want fun NFA a silence full auto guns is the stuff I have fired a few and they are fun fun fun if I had the money I would get this RTDS Built MP5SD Suppressed Machine Gun on Form 3 : Machine Guns at GunBroker.com full auto silenced mp5 I have fired them they are fun or a FA colt commando 9mm with a can again a great gun.

    And if you can do check out a pistion AR cleaner guns and I like them esp the sig 556 smoth gun and very compact love the stock

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    He mentioned in that post that IF he invests again in getting his Class III license...

    I think he just mean getting another tax stamp iteam..

    That said OP you have a SOT ? If so then you have a few more options

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    Quote Originally Posted by WrongRecroom View Post
    I think he just mean getting another tax stamp iteam..

    That said OP you have a SOT ? If so then you have a few more options
    I said in my post what he mentioned. I'll leave the assumptions to you.
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    BTW- i forgot to mention if i decide to invest in a class-III again,(i had a suppressor for my heavily modified mini-14. i hate AR's, remember) i will get her a Kriss Vector. holy business those are cool. i even already own a glock 21 with a bucket full of mags, though no 30 roundrs, but you can still find em, if not easily.
    What he said, it says nothing about a license or stamp, but both can be inferred
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

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