This is a discussion on Stoner Rifles/Reliability within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Guess i'm feeling fiesty today. i'm doin' it.
Some of you may remember my thread about P90's for my wife and how i felt about ...
December 23rd, 2013 02:17 PM
Guess i'm feeling fiesty today. i'm doin' it.
Some of you may remember my thread about P90's for my wife and how i felt about AR's....
I am challenging this group to find a more unreliable, maintenance heavy, feedway stoppage prone, or otherwise finnicky autoloading combat rifle. i will even open the field up to SMG's and PDW's. I will also add as thorough of a list as i can think of of weapons that are absolutely more reliable than stoner rifles.
I will also add i am fully aware the AR is "king" of assualt rifles in this country. and at least some of it's attribute are very good. inlcuding inherent accuracy, ergonomics, versatility, options, and the most aftermarket support of perhaps any product in the world. i just want to pick on the gun and try to see if anyone can find a weapon that deserves to be "king" of feedway stoppages more than the Stoner.
So: guns that are for sure more reliable than Stoner's.
Kalishnikov's- AK-47, AK-74, AKM, WASR, Bulgarian Machined receiver, open top sa. 58's...any of em.
Garand rifles- M1 Garand, M14, M1a, .30 carbine, even Mini's.
is any HK product as prone to jamming? G3 series on up to modern?
how about G3 predecessor? CETME? or IT"S predecessor--- the Sturmgewehr 45?
how about FN products? from the iconic FAL to the uber modern PS2000? any of em as jam prone?
(also note: FN made a 5.56 gas-piston gun that takes M16 mags many moons ago, the FNC, it never took off, and is ugly as sin, but it did everything an M16 did, and, arguably, better. the swedish version, called an Ak 5, is their current standard issue)
even Steyr's funny AUG?
i know i'm missing a bunch, especially the Chinese/oriental weapons, and a lot of the Soviet Bloc Ak derivatives.
But still, point to an autoloading combat rifle and say it's decidedly more prone to feedway stoppages than an AR...?
Maybe the M249 SAW, but i've never even held one, and i'm not sure belt feds count in this sense anyway...?
hoo boy, i stand ready for the Inquisition....!
December 23rd, 2013 02:26 PM
Hey welcome to the board....now give it a rest.
If you absolutely have to have an answer I'll give you one...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
December 23rd, 2013 02:37 PM
What? i thought this is what it's for? nobody wants to talk? we can have mile long thread about 2A but i shouldn't talk about AR's? granted i am new to this so if this makes me a bad forum person, sorry. i really am kind of curious if somebody knows of something i don't.
Originally Posted by atctimmy
i guess i'd like to think i can ask more questions than what holster i should use or who makes a better light. if i'm overposting or should just go away, then i guess i'm missing the point of a forum. sorry if i offend. Can i have list of acceptable questions and how often i am allowed to post and not be pushing the limits? and i mean that in both the sarcastic sense, and a for-real sense since i don't do this very often. if an Admin. comes on here and tells me i am way out of line. fine.
December 23rd, 2013 02:54 PM
Uh if you get a p-90 let me know your breaking about 10 federal laws doing it . It is a ps-90 ..
Also dont call them Assualt rifles they are moderen sport rifles etc. Assult means full auto guns.
Are you asking what the best batle rifle is then? I would say the AK .
If we are talking civialan guns 922r comes into play . So guns that are great reliable battel guns might not be as good civiilan guns . Ie a lot of CAI clones are not that good.
Narrow down what you are asking. You asking civiialn or military guns?
If civiialne I would say any pre 89 guns esp the h&k or ak are very good
December 23rd, 2013 02:58 PM
My AR must be broke. I haven't cleaned it in over 1000 rounds of cheap, steel-cased ammo, and it still runs like a sewing machine.
'Clinging to my guns and religion
December 23rd, 2013 03:04 PM
Please show us the statistical proof for your theory, and then your thread may generate some interest. Otherwise
"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
December 23rd, 2013 03:12 PM
The US Army studied the relative reliability of its small arms and found that the Garand had actually suffered more stoppages than the M-16 rifle. The M-14 also suffered due to swollen stocks ruining its accuracy and general reliability (granted this can be fixed with a polymer stock but still...far from infallible). When the Garand was selected the review board that gave it the nod essentially said it was the least unreliable of the three unreliable rifles it had to choose from. The Mini-14...get real. If you're going to list things as "for sure more reliable"....you'd better be sure they're actually more reliable. And no gaming it by comparing a nice Fulton M1A with a Bushmaster either.
At this point the "AR is unreliable" camp basically has little more than anecdotes from inexperienced privates who dump 10 mags through their rifles on burst in rapid succession and then wonder why the rifle becomes too hot to shoot. We could also talk about the FN FS2000, which isn't necessarily any more reliable and will typically require a good deal of disassembly to clear when it does fail. The earlier British L85 rifles also had their share of reliability problems. If we do enough research on any given weapon system problems are going to surface. They are all still mechanical devices built by human beings, and so they'll fail sooner or later. Even your beloved AKs.
December 23rd, 2013 03:14 PM
Had the opportunity to watch and listen to a couple ARs on 'rock n roll' Saturday at the range (next bay over from mine) 'They brrrrrrrrrrep' every time. I hadn't heard that sound in 40 or so yrs and it was like listening to classical music. I guess if ya take care of them, and know them they'll be as reliable as any
December 23rd, 2013 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by peckman28
Yep heck the l85 had a massive problem with mag relese being in the wrong place and grunts mag dropping all the time . Heck most m1a/FAL etc were made to fire semi auto only as they were about useless on full auto .
December 23rd, 2013 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by kaikane0812
Yep .. The problems in the early days of Nam was from cost cutting and bad ammo .. And telling grunts the wonder gun did not need to be cleaned ( whops).
Any guns needs to be cleaned and oil . Sure maybe some more then others but they all do .
Also rock and roll guns are very fun. I have had a chance to fired a fire and yeah big similes ..
December 23rd, 2013 03:28 PM
December 23rd, 2013 03:50 PM
If you really want to find out how wrong you are about the AR15 platform, go post this thread over at AR15.com and let their resident experts have a little fun.
*Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Sorry if there are any errors.*
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
-General James Mattis, USMC
December 23rd, 2013 03:53 PM
I'm amazed that people continue to perpetuate the myth/lie that the AR/M4/M16 family is unreliable.
There are people in this world that have sent more ammunition through the rifle than I have, but most people probably haven't spent a fraction of the time I have behind the trigger on one of Stoner's rifles. In thousands upon thousands of rounds I can remember exactly two failures. One was a squib round, which absolutely cannot be blamed on the rifle. The other was a double feed that may have been caused by the rifle, though the armorer actually thought it was something else entirely. And yes it went to the armorer because it jammed up beyond my ability to clear it... or that of anyone in my unit.
On the flip side I decided to try the AK platform a while back- mostly because people were falling all over themselves to talk about how great the are. Funny thing, I had a WASR that wouldn't run well enough to call it a piece of junk. Junk works better than that rifle did. But in fairness that would be like judging the AR platform by just shooting an olympic arms rifle. When you buy the bottom of the barrel guns the results often match the price. Then I picked up Arsenal. It was much better, however I did experience infrequent failure to feed issues with the gun.
I have had issues with mini 14s, FALs, and an M1 Carbine over the years. None of them were show stoppers, but they had hiccups along the way. Other than the one WASR I'd say they were all more than reliable enough when properly cared for. Simply put when you run guns hard and long they sometimes have problems... I accept that. I accept that I've been fortunate that I haven't had issues with the AR pattern rifles. I'll be running the gun hard again on Friday. Maybe that'll be the day the plague that some complain about will finally find me. If it does, so be it. But for some reason I bet I'll have the same experience I've had every other time.
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
December 23rd, 2013 03:53 PM
I've got the same kind of problem with my primary AR. It doesn't jam, misfire, and misfeed like it's supposed to, even though I don't give it fresh magazines every range trip, and often fail to get those last bits of carbon off the bolt tail.
Can someone tell me how I'm supposed to fix this? More mud in the port next time?
December 23rd, 2013 03:56 PM
Gotta admit, I'm starting to enjoy this guy's threads.
The AR-15 developed a bad rep at the start because it was absolutely bleeding-edge tech for 1957, and its first widespread use was in one of the worst environments imaginable for it. Judging by how much the users of today love their weapons, I'd say a modern AR is a world-class weapon. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the design, although some design variants (like the HK 416) do it better than others.
And as reliable as an AK-47 may be, it's not because the design is better; it's because the tolerances in Soviet manufacturing were terrible and it had to be built with a ton of slop. Light? Accurate? Efficient? No. But you can pile a lot of dirt into it and the parts will still keep slapping around for a while. That's a great quality to have, but not the ONLY quality a fighting rifle needs. JMHO.
...there is no arguing with such snivelling puppies, who allow superiors to kick them about deck at pleasure.
— Captain Bellamy
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