Support arm position on combat rifles?

Support arm position on combat rifles?

This is a discussion on Support arm position on combat rifles? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; like ya'll want to see another new thread from me.... but after having identical twins and not really thinking about guns at all for the ...

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Thread: Support arm position on combat rifles?

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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Support arm position on combat rifles?

    like ya'll want to see another new thread from me....

    but after having identical twins and not really thinking about guns at all for the last few years, i have diving back in with both feet.
    as such i picked up a few new gun mags, and i noticed something.
    All the pictures of the "serious operators" in these new gunu mags i picked up have their support arm stretched WAAAY out in front of them. (for a right handed shooter) their arm is almost straight out and they appear to be gripping their rifle right behind the gas block. or if they have a vert for grip it's way out on the very end of the "quad rail". now, i know a lot of the pictures in these mags are staged, but some of them aren't and it seems like EVERY SINGLE one shows this same trend. i don't recall seeing that 5 years ago.

    what gives?

    i can understand it may allow you to swing the gun faster, especially with a few pounds of light/NV-IR laser/suppressor hanging off the end of the gun, but doesn't your arm just fatigue faster? sure, a SEAL may be trained/strong enough the fatigue may not be an issue, but it still just surprises me. i even had an old .220 swift growing up that had the rod and ball sticking down in front of the trigger guard so you could brace your elbow on your hip. granted, that's probably not a good CQB technique, but it just seems having your arm outstretched that far would not make for much stability...

    clarity here?


  2. #2
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    New trend brought in from the 3 gun crowd that has been universally adopted. It is said to help many things: follow up shots, stability, target acquisition and positions your hand for light/accessory operation.

    You pull into your shoulder with the pistol grip and push out towards the target with the forend/support hand grip.

    As I am not going to be doing much door busting and room clearing and since I am just an old fart retired Marine and not a high speed, low drag operator, nor do I shoot three gun, I have stuck with the old ways.
    StormRhydr likes this.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps.

    The line of hard men willing to rain violence on our enemies so you can sleep warmly and safely in your bed at night continues. That's what we do. Semper fi.

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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    wow, i do the push/pull thing with my handgun, but that's something i guess i will have to try with the long gun. it looked like even a few of them were lifting their front elbow, like we always used to tell people NOT to do. we called it "duck wings" when somebody wanted to lift their elbows to horizontal. is this a factor as well?

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    Energy follows the path of least resistance. Any time you bend an elbow or wrist you are providing a weak point for energy to take advantage of. This translates in loss of recoil management. Some will argue doesn't matter with 5.56, I would prefer to maximize recoil management which does away with a lot of the wasted motioned caused by a person who is bending his or her elbows loosing even slight control.

    By pushing your arm all the way out and locking it down with a c clamp style grip over your rail, your literally locking the gun down into your body shooting from more of your core, vs your shoulder. This also forces you to stand squared up, vs standing in a bladed stance. Bladed stances create many points in which the recoil energy will take advantage of causing wasted motion and a lose of recoil management. This translates to Slower shooting, and lose of accurate follow up shots. I prefer accuracy, driving fast to the next target and economy of motion, all of which are enhanced by this shooting position. Downside it can be fatiguing.

    Even if you are not wearing body armor, blading away if you are hit, chances are the bullet will damage multiple organs.
    Squaring up and getting hit head on, you have a better chance of taking a through and through hit.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    interesting. some of the things i understand about bio-mechanics may conflict with this. i.e.- keeping your elbow close you our ribs promotes strength and strength = stability. you can turn on an "axis" that is between your body and gun faster than you can swing the gun on it's own axis. but these are theoretical statements i have no backing for. i am VERY curious to get out and do some shooting now to experiment with this. i have always found having my arm way out there to be uncomfortable, and uncomfortable shooting, is bad shooting, at least for me. BUT i have never tried a push pull technique. i HAVE been trying to square up more as i shoot, this is something i already tried, and like. very,very interesting.

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    Simple test

    Tape your self shooting bent elbow, bladed Watch how high the muzzle climbs.
    Tape yourself squared up using a c clamp style grip. Watch how high the muzzle climbs.

    If you are using an aggressive athletic stance the recoil energy will go straight and be absorbed by more of your core body, the muzzle should climb very little. And it just pushes you a little.
    Start bending elbows etc.... It should climb higher.

    Use a a large caliber rifle should help you see the results better.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    I will say the downside is the fatigue factor....that's probably why you see this more in competition.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    Some years back we we told and taught if you held the mag on a m1/M4 type rifle or put it on the ground it would cause feed issues.
    Seems this turned out to be another of 100's of urban legends.
    A trained hold that works very well and results in improved shot groups at all ranges is with the non firing hand wrapped high and around the mag.
    pulling the weapon in to the shoulder , and supporting it. I was never paid as a writer so hard for me to put it all into words.
    You may find a few videos on it . It works and is a trained hold now.
    Also when in the prone position it is now taught to plant the 30 round mag to stabilize the weapon. It does not interfere with cycling rounds .
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    i never gave much credit to the "hold the mag/mess the gun up" thing. i've even leaned against a tree branch which was "pushing against" the magazine to induce lateral forces, nothing.

    as for this new stance, i am very interested to try it. and i wasn't arguing it. thanks for explaining it to me. and i very much plan on practicing with this hold to see what i can do. fortunately i have been training myself to watch for muzzle rise since i got my first 10/22 when i was a kid. so i believe i will notice a difference right away. i knew i was seeing something different in those magazines and that's why i asked and i am now very curious to try it for myself.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    For me its like this....

    Kavalander and OD* like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    ^^^^
    That be it.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps.

    The line of hard men willing to rain violence on our enemies so you can sleep warmly and safely in your bed at night continues. That's what we do. Semper fi.

    NRA Life Member since 1972

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    For me its like this....

    Steve Fischer aka YETI great instructor great guy!
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Steve Fischer aka YETI great instructor great guy!
    Yep.....

    I would love to train with him.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Some years back we we told and taught if you held the mag on a m1/M4 type rifle or put it on the ground it would cause feed issues.
    Seems this turned out to be another of 100's of urban legends.
    A trained hold that works very well and results in improved shot groups at all ranges is with the non firing hand wrapped high and around the mag.
    pulling the weapon in to the shoulder , and supporting it. I was never paid as a writer so hard for me to put it all into words.
    You may find a few videos on it . It works and is a trained hold now.
    Also when in the prone position it is now taught to plant the 30 round mag to stabilize the weapon. It does not interfere with cycling rounds .
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Steve Fisher - six foot five, 300 pounds of impressiveness.

    He was in a couple of the Pat Rogers courses I took... during one of the drills, this guy (Pat R refers to guys like him as "freaks of nature") jumped from standing to the double kneeling (a/k/a "Monica") position. Wearing shorts. NO knee pads. How he managed that without breaking kneecaps I'll never know.

    as for this new stance, i am very interested to try it. and i wasn't arguing it. thanks for explaining it to me. and i very much plan on practicing with this hold to see what i can do. fortunately i have been training myself to watch for muzzle rise since i got my first 10/22 when i was a kid. so i believe i will notice a difference right away. i knew i was seeing something different in those magazines and that's why i asked and i am now very curious to try it for myself.
    There's a "Tac 22" match twice a month at my range, and I dedicated a 10/22 specifically for that game. Sporter stock, no AR-lookalike stuff. The targets are all reactive, and there are speed stages and precision stages, with targets from 15 to 100 yards. I've run iron sights (Tech Sights - Garand-type), scopes, and a red dot, and figured out that I do best overall with the RDS. I started out using a classic marksman's stance, with the support hand providing vertical support for the front of the gun and little else. Well, that's close to worthless if you have to move to a different shooting box and reacquire a stance while the clock is running, so I adopted more of an AR-carbine fighting grip with the support hand grasping the stock just in front of the magazine (can't grab the 10/22 mag like you can on an AR), with elbows tucked in. That did a lot to steady the gun. Just this summer, I started extending my support arm almost fully forward and "C-clamping" the front of the stock and barrel with the hand... much better steadiness. It's less important on the close-range targets, like 8" plates at 25 yards, but there's substantial improvement on my hits on the precision targets, like 2" 'lollipops' at 25 yards or IPSC-sized plates at 100 yards. If you have to keep the gun moving from target to target, I think you'll find it a big help. Give it a try.

    FWIW, here's a trailer video from our club matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UiYcA1BuBM
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member
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