A surprising and interesting response from Wilson Combat about the 300 Blackout...

This is a discussion on A surprising and interesting response from Wilson Combat about the 300 Blackout... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I built a 300 BO using a Wilson Combat barrel and adjustable gas block. From reading many posts, I knew I could expect some cycling ...

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  1. #1
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    A surprising and interesting response from Wilson Combat about the 300 Blackout...

    I built a 300 BO using a Wilson Combat barrel and adjustable gas block. From reading many posts, I knew I could expect some cycling problems especially from the subsonic loads. So my plan was to get the gun set up to cycle the subsonic and then use the gas block to adapt to the supersonics. But...

    With the gas block wide open, or so I thought, more about that shortly, the gun would not lock the bolt back after the last round with any load. So I called Wilson Combat, got a tech guy on the line and explained the problem. His first question was, "Are you using a Wilson bolt carrier?" I said, no, and he asked what I was using. I said a ______ (I'm leaving this blank to not indicate the specific manf., JIC the carrier isn't the problem). He said that he had been getting a number calls with problems like this and suggested I try a different bolt carrier and see what happens. Apparently, a different bolt carrier has been resolving the problem. He said it looks like a bunch of guys have bought the same BCG and are having problems.

    He also asked how far out I had adjusted the set screw 'valve'. I told him I could only get about three full turns on the locking set screw before it contacted the metering set screw. He said you might want to back that out just a bit more. Hmmm....

    It's really hard for me to believe that a BCG is a part of the problem, if not perhaps the problem, but it's also hard to believe that a Wilson tech would suggest this with no reason to. So, I'm going to put my Armalite BCG in it and see what happens. I have to say, honestly, I'm not expecting it to help, but again, why would a tech suggest that after a rash of this issue? I mean the guys would try a different BCG and if it didn't help, they would be calling him back telling him that didn't work. Kinda scary!
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    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Maybe the particular BCG you're running is a little heavier for some reason? That does sound odd...

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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Maybe the particular BCG you're running is a little heavier for some reason? That does sound odd...
    It does sound odd. That they have identified the BCG as the problem is just unexpected. It's on par too, that he didn't ask about carbine length, buffer, buffer spring, etc - his first thing was the BCG. He didn't mention the 'heavy' possibility, but he did mention something about a looser fit. That's strange too. Maybe some BCs got manufactured out of spec some how and they got out without getting noticed until....

    I'll see today what my Armalite BCG and maybe a Windham Weaponery BCG does. It's gonna be cold, but in this case shooting and curiosity trump cold
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    The BCG might be within tolerances, but right at the edge. Since you are already using a round that pushes design envelopes for the weapon, you might be getting issues.

    The site with the most professionals with the knowledge would be M4carbine. They might have some insight.

    I can tell you that in this situation, many times their recommendations are : Lube the ever living snot out of it and get it broke in before worrying too much about it.

    I also wonder if the "too loose" comment was about the ID of the BC where the bolt rides, thereby allowing for gas escape and functioning problems (ID too great allowing gas bypass around the rings on the bolt).

    If you extend the bolt in the carrier, then place the BCG vertically (bolt up), does the bolt drop back into the retracted position? That is a quick field expedient check.

    With the tech not commenting on springs, buffers or other action parts and using the technical term "too loose" (SAR), it leads me to believe it is carrier specific and that leads me to believe you might be having gas escape issues. (and "break-in" isn't going to help that)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chorizo View Post
    The BCG might be within tolerances, but right at the edge. Since you are already using a round that pushes design envelopes for the weapon, you might be getting issues.

    The site with the most professionals with the knowledge would be M4carbine. They might have some insight.

    I can tell you that in this situation, many times their recommendations are : Lube the ever living snot out of it and get it broke in before worrying too much about it.

    I also wonder if the "too loose" comment was about the ID of the BC where the bolt rides, thereby allowing for gas escape and functioning problems (ID too great allowing gas bypass around the rings on the bolt).

    If you extend the bolt in the carrier, then place the BCG vertically (bolt up), does the bolt drop back into the retracted position? That is a quick field expedient check.

    With the tech not commenting on springs, buffers or other action parts and using the technical term "too loose" (SAR), it leads me to believe it is carrier specific and that leads me to believe you might be having gas escape issues. (and "break-in" isn't going to help that)
    Interesting.

    At your suggestion, I checked the bolt in the carrier. I pulled the bolt out - it had resistance to pulling, and I stood the BCG vertically resting on the bolt in the extended position - it just sat there with the bolt fully extended and bearing the weight of the BC. So that per se doesn't appear to be the problem.

    The 'break-in' thing might be a part of it too, but I've shot this thing quite a bit with various loads, plus the WC tech didn't mention that as a problem.

    I sure seem to have some brain-strainer problems don't I

    Although, in all fairness there seem to be a lot of folks reporting problems with cycling with the 300 BO. Most have changed buffers and springs to resolve the problem - I hope I don't have to get into that.
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    Distinguished Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    jumping in here and derailing a tad... if i may...

    question: since i am not an AR afficianado; would a titanium carrier reduce your mass and help? or are titanium carriers a gimmick?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    jumping in here and derailing a tad... if i may...

    question: since i am not an AR afficianado; would a titanium carrier reduce your mass and help? or are titanium carriers a gimmick?
    Hey man, derail away if that's what it is. I'm looking for opinions regarding the problem and solutions, well other than a short barreled rifle being the universal answer to all our rifle needs.

    I really don't know if the Ti carrier would help or not, or if there actually is one. I have mixed feelings about the BCG being the problem. If it is, then there's a solution - that's good I guess. If it is, I have to buy another BCG - that isn't so good

    Thanks for the thought!
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    Do you have a M-16 carrier or an AR-15 carrier? The AR-15 is lighter.

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    bolt carriers (w/o bolts in them):

    Colt non shrouded 1/2 circle carrier 8.63oz
    Colt shrouded 1/2 circle carrier 8.87oz
    Bushmaster non shrouded AR15 carrier 8.92oz.
    Bushmaster shrouded AR15 carrier 9.26oz.
    CMT M16 carrier 9.46oz

    Also, the bolt not locking back could be because of TOO MUCH pressure and the bolt bouncing past the bolt stop.

    I solved the very same issue by adding an H-3 buffer to a carbine vice a H-2 buffer.
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    A cop buddy of mine had a Colt 14.5". It was essentially a single shot and the armorer at his department wanted to drill out the gas port (yeah, seriously). I asked him to bring it by and we went to the range. He was using a different, but still highly regarded manufacturer's carrier group. I swapped it out with my Colt BCG and it ran perfectly.

    Not saying this is your issue, but companies like RRA and Wilson that use different specs than the TDP and might hold tolerances to the tighter side might run better with their own components IF they have problems with another manufacturer's.

    I'd definitely try a couple others to see. You might not necessarily feel any drag when working the charging handle back and forth.
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    I took these four BCGs to the range today: Armalite, Troy Industries, BCM, and a Windham Weaponry. I fired 110 gr and 125 gr rounds with each of the BCGs. You guys are right on!

    The Armalite (second from the top in the pics) locked back every time, although I sense it may be somewhat marginal. The Troy (top one in the pics) locked back most of the time with the 110 gr but didn't much like the 125 gr. The BCM and Windham didn't lock back at all.

    BTW, the upper is made by JD Machine.

    Here are pics of the four BCGs:





    None would even start to lock back with subsonic 220 gr and wouldn't even eject the cases.

    The weights are:
    Windham..11.6 oz
    BCM........11.7 oz
    Armalite...10.9 oz
    Troy........11.0 oz

    There's no more than 0.8 oz difference in weight from the lightest, Armalite, to the heaviest, BCM.

    Are we thinking eight tens of an ounce is the problem, or is there something else?

    Eight tenths of an ounce (less than an ounce) doesn't seem like enough to make a difference???

    Hmmm, you know what - it looks to me like all that extra metal at the rear of the BCGs should weigh more than 0.8 oz, but that's what the scale said. I'm gonna weigh them again, that just doesn't look right. Well, I got exactly the same thing the second time - it just looks like there's more metal there than 0.8 oz.

    So maybe the 'right' bolt carrier will fix some of the problem, but that still leaves the 220 gn cycling problem.

    Thoughts???
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    i know i already said it, but i wonder if reducing the mass of your moving parts would help, i.e.- the titanium carrier, i am not much of an AR guy, so who else knows what can be done to reduce reciprocating mass? ...or i just thought, reducing spring pressure may be a cheaper/easier solution. surely you can find different springs for the buffer assembly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    i know i already said it, but i wonder if reducing the mass of your moving parts would help, i.e.- the titanium carrier, i am not much of an AR guy, so who else knows what can be done to reduce reciprocating mass? ...or i just thought, reducing spring pressure may be a cheaper/easier solution. surely you can find different springs for the buffer assembly?
    I don't know; I'm waiting to see what some others have to say about this.

    Some that have had this problem have changed out the buffer and buffer spring. I'm hoping that won't be necessary.
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    What buffer are you using? Buffer and spring combo is easy enough to change.

    I have a couple of extra carbine buffers (lightest there is) I can send you if you want.

    It sounds like the light buffer and maybe a light spring is what you need.

    Wolff has them in "calibration" packs.

    http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?...2&mID=1&dID=79
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    Have you tried weighing different buffers and trying them? along with the heaviest/lightest BCG's?

    Time to get a suppressor to incr back pressure.

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    Tangle,

    What are you running for buffers???
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