Sideways Iron Sights?

Sideways Iron Sights?

This is a discussion on Sideways Iron Sights? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Alright, i've been chewing on this for ahwile and i just don't get it. About Thanksgiving i went to a gun show with the fam. ...

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Thread: Sideways Iron Sights?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Sideways Iron Sights?

    Alright, i've been chewing on this for ahwile and i just don't get it.

    About Thanksgiving i went to a gun show with the fam. and an old friend. Very last thing i saw walking out the door wa snice looking AR, with two, what i thought to be, ridiculous Mall Ninja gadgets.

    Offender #1- a dang knife. on the left hand side of the quad fore-rail was a small boot knife, don't know if it's sheath was designed for 1913 rail, or if i was looking at an adapter, either way i was disgusted and went to walk away, when i saw...

    Offender #2- sideways iron sights. i gave this more pause. i noticed they were on the right-hand side of the gun, so you would either have to crane your head over in an almost impossible position, or tilt the gun 45 degrees or so. at the time i laughed it off. i've long supported the idea of co-witnessing irons through any optic you can. my Leupold Prismatic is co-witnessed.
    now i've seen it in an ad for a STAG ARMS 3G rifle in a gun mag. they advertised it as a competition gun, not a fighting gun, and it looks the part. so is this a 3 gun thing? if so, why? if you turn the gun 45 degrees aren't your bullets going to start printing to the left as the barrel up slpoe will be canted? i would imagine that around 50-75 yards(?) you'd start seeing this? are we really THAT worried about our optic failing?

    i don't really need an answer about the knife, maybe somebody thinks it great, i think it ridiculous, but i am curious about these sights.


  2. #2
    Member Array glocknjeep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    Alright, i've been chewing on this for ahwile and i just don't get it.

    About Thanksgiving i went to a gun show with the fam. and an old friend. Very last thing i saw walking out the door wa snice looking AR, with two, what i thought to be, ridiculous Mall Ninja gadgets.

    Offender #1- a dang knife. on the left hand side of the quad fore-rail was a small boot knife, don't know if it's sheath was designed for 1913 rail, or if i was looking at an adapter, either way i was disgusted and went to walk away, when i saw...

    Offender #2- sideways iron sights. i gave this more pause. i noticed they were on the right-hand side of the gun, so you would either have to crane your head over in an almost impossible position, or tilt the gun 45 degrees or so. at the time i laughed it off. i've long supported the idea of co-witnessing irons through any optic you can. my Leupold Prismatic is co-witnessed.
    now i've seen it in an ad for a STAG ARMS 3G rifle in a gun mag. they advertised it as a competition gun, not a fighting gun, and it looks the part. so is this a 3 gun thing? if so, why? if you turn the gun 45 degrees aren't your bullets going to start printing to the left as the barrel up slpoe will be canted? i would imagine that around 50-75 yards(?) you'd start seeing this? are we really THAT worried about our optic failing?

    i don't really need an answer about the knife, maybe somebody thinks it great, i think it ridiculous, but i am curious about these sights.
    It is a method of having readily available BUIS with an optic where co-witnessing is not an option due to magnification or height. They are designed to be utilized by turning the rifle, not craning the head. Typically they will not be as accurate as normal in line irons but if your running an acog or 1-4 style optic, they work pretty good.
    StormRhydr and sammage like this.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    The sights have a purpose, but the knife, I would have laughed myself.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  4. #4
    Member Array wsquared's Avatar
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    Co-witnessing iron sights through a 1X optic is a good thing (let's not get into lower 1/3 vs. absolute). Co-witnessing iron sights through magnified optics is not really possible. After all, how are you going to get that front post into focus through a 6X scope?

    The intention of offset sights is so that if you are faced with a "snap shoot" situation with a target that's up too close to be effectively engaged with your magnified optic (or would be slow to engage that way) you can simply cant the rifle, engage the target, and then carry on. All of the offset sights that I have seen seem to be designed as close-range sights, intended for snap shots. This is definitely faster than the alternative of removing the magnified optic, folding up the BUIS, and then engaging the target.

    If they had offset sights on a rifle with a 1X optic, then I have no real explanation for what you saw. Please file it in the same drawer as the tactical stealth weapon-mounted ninjitsu boot knife.

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    90% of the stuff people load their ARs down with is crap. Maybe a light and be done with it.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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    Senior Member Array JJVP's Avatar
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    Watch this. Not iron sights but two different type of sights for different purposes.

    AR-15 in Slow Motion- 3 shots in body and 2 in head in a HALF SECOND with Jerry Miculek! - YouTube

    Also check here

    Side mounted sights on AR-15 ??? - The Firearm Blog

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    If your role has you primarily taking longer shots with the possibility that it may be needed quickly at close range, offset irons or red dot like the T1 or mini RMR is a good choice.

    I can run a 4x ACOG quickly and accurately at close range, but not a precision magnified optic with a standard reticle. This is where the offset comes in.

    Or, you leave your 1-4 on 4x constantly and run the offsets so you don't have to dial down the power.

    These have their place. Mainly for competition shooters and those that fill a DMR type role.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJVP View Post
    Watch this. Not iron sights but two different type of sights for different purposes.

    AR-15 in Slow Motion- 3 shots in body and 2 in head in a HALF SECOND with Jerry Miculek! - YouTube

    Also check here

    Side mounted sights on AR-15 ??? - The Firearm Blog
    huh. i guess i can see the logic. i can reliably hit COM on a man-size out to maybe 15-20 yds with out really aiming at all. just point shooting. but i also won't pretend i could do a head shot or a tight group like that either, so i guess i can see it, just still seems... superfluous? but i guess somebody decided they needed it or it wouldn't be aorund. to each his own.

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    The sights, I'm sure for 3-gun shoots. You see them on the Outdoor Channel, in Stag Arms commercials. Defense situation, I dunno, as I've never used em.
    Kinda like the humorus BIRDMAN HOMEBOY sights on the Glock.
    90 degree sights for the AR rifle:
    Homeboy Sights for Rifles
    (The above is directly from Cheaper than dirt's site.)
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    If your role has you primarily taking longer shots with the possibility that it may be needed quickly at close range, offset irons or red dot like the T1 or mini RMR is a good choice.

    I can run a 4x ACOG quickly and accurately at close range, but not a precision magnified optic with a standard reticle. This is where the offset comes in.

    Or, you leave your 1-4 on 4x constantly and run the offsets so you don't have to dial down the power.

    These have their place. Mainly for competition shooters and those that fill a DMR type role.
    derail my own thread...
    maybe you can offer some advice here then... i keep ping-ponging between my Leupold Primsatic non-magnified, co-witnessed, and a simple, 2-7x optic. i figure the 2-7x @ 2x is less magnification than a standard 4x ACOG, and guys run those all day for multi-purpose work, right? so why not? i can crank the knob to 7x for long shots, and leave it at 2-3x for most stuff. it's a TAD slower to acquire than the prismatic, but with an illuminated reticle i don't really think i notice much practical difference between time-on-target for me.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT- BTW, i ALWAYS shoot both eyes open. since i was a kid. so no pirate eye for me when scoping...

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavalander View Post
    derail my own thread...
    maybe you can offer some advice here then... i keep ping-ponging between my Leupold Primsatic non-magnified, co-witnessed, and a simple, 2-7x optic. i figure the 2-7x @ 2x is less magnification than a standard 4x ACOG, and guys run those all day for multi-purpose work, right? so why not? i can crank the knob to 7x for long shots, and leave it at 2-3x for most stuff. it's a TAD slower to acquire than the prismatic, but with an illuminated reticle i don't really think i notice much practical difference between time-on-target for me.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT- BTW, i ALWAYS shoot both eyes open. since i was a kid. so no pirate eye for me when scoping...
    That's going to be dependent on you and the quality of the optic. I can run an ACOG 4x32 just fine at close range using the "bindon aiming concept" and get very accurate hits.

    With a 2.5-10, on 2x depending on the parallax and the brightness of the red dot (which it has to have), I may not be able to do it as well or may not get as accurate hits as with the ACOG.

    One of the best ways to really learn this technique and figure out if it works for you with your optic or not, is to completely cover the front of your optic and run it both eyes open. This is how the original red dot optics were designed, you could not view through them.

    Some me guys can't do it without the front covered on a magnified optic depending on eye dominance and how they work together.

    Nothing beats a red dot in terms of speed, but I know a lot of guys that aren't faster with a red dot compared to a magnified optic or irons. That doesn't mean the red dot is slower, it just means they aren't taking full advantage of the red dot optic.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #12
    Member Array Dwar06's Avatar
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    A lite, a 3x optic, BUIS, sling, and big magazine....anything else to consider , oh yea a cigar in he stock !

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    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Don't madder where a ghost ring sight is mounted once sighted and line up you will hit the target.
    Side mounting at a angle allows more flexible use of scopes and sights nothing new
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    VIP Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    interesting. thank you. though, even my Prismatic has parallax as well, though almost none.

    hehe. two more questions..

    any good drills for practicing this? what ranges do you do this "scope covered" technique at? 5-20 yds sounds reasonable?

    i really like the "little" irons you will see integrated into the top of a lot of ACOG's lately. anybody making scope rings with irons on them?
    actually, i just realized i bet i could make some... nice fiber optic jobs TIG welded on... wouldn't be my first time

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    My rifles all have a light, a VCAS sling, optic, BUIS and most of the time they have a stubby TD very grip. Occasionally I'll run a buddy's PEQ 15 or DBAL. With night hunting in Texas, I think they're extremely useful if you own night vision.

    If I'm running a red dot, I'll always have BUIS. I keep them down typically or maybe the front up, depending. But, should I'm doing my gear checks before heading out, I always cowitness my irons with my red dot. Regardless of a 1/3 or absolutely cowitness, if both are zeroed, they will always align when viewed through the rear aperture. If not, it means something shifted. If they do, then I told them back down. I never shoot this way.
    Bad Bob likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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